New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association

Brewing => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Dave Savoie on August 19, 2011, 02:36:46 PM

Title: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Dave Savoie on August 19, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
does anyone use this stuff ?
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Ian Grant on August 19, 2011, 04:08:26 PM
Me does.  iono if it helps or not.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Chris Craig on March 09, 2012, 09:23:05 PM
All else being equal, if I start using this stuff, will it make my beer better.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Dave Savoie on March 09, 2012, 09:24:06 PM
Well Ive started using it in all my brews for the past 6 months or so and have not got a bad beer yet it hasnt hurt any
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Dave Savoie on March 09, 2012, 09:31:07 PM
One thing Ive noticed is my beers tend to be a bit cleaner if that means anything
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Richard on March 09, 2012, 10:51:45 PM
Potentially less tannin presence due to the wort having better buffering capacity.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: HappyHax0r on March 10, 2012, 10:36:32 AM
Heh, this whole thread needs a lesson in the problems with anecdotal evidence or the general concensus that correlation equals causation.

:)

Hey, I have a bottle of "GodDidIt!", and I poured it in some water, mashed it at 154F with some grains, and then boiled the results with hops, cooled it, pitched yeast, waited a while and got beer. It had to be the GodDidIt! that made the beer, because nothing else can turn water into beer... right? :lol:.

Experiments people, proper scientific experiments will yell you the difference between the use of this pH stabilizer, and the non-use of this pH stabilizer. Nothing else will.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Chris Craig on March 10, 2012, 10:49:32 AM
So...maybe?  I'm not going to bother then.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: HappyHax0r on March 10, 2012, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: "ChrisCraig"
So...maybe?  I'm not going to bother then.


Cellared == Nothing? :P... are you in need of the IPS?
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Richard on March 10, 2012, 11:29:06 AM
It's a phosphate buffer, probably like a monosodium phosphate and disodium phosphate mix. the term "stabiliser" is to appeal to people who don't know what a buffer is, afaik. Phosphates are salts.

Also check this out:

(warning, thar be science dragons, and they have a heavy german accent)

2xPodcasts:
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/7/c/3/7c328a1f04 ... aiph01.mp3 (http://hw.libsyn.com/p/7/c/3/7c328a1f041c29f4/bbr03-17-11kaiph01.mp3)
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/f/d/f/fdfd52dbc1 ... aiph02.mp3 (http://hw.libsyn.com/p/f/d/f/fdfd52dbc1d8933b/bbr03-24-11kaiph02.mp3)

Background Material:

How pH Affects Brewing (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/How_pH_affects_brewing)
An Overview of pH (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/An_Overview_of_pH)
Water pH Spreadsheet (http://braukaiser.com/documents/Kaiser_water_calculator_US_units.xls)
Mash pH Control (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Mash_pH_control)
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Chris Craig on March 10, 2012, 11:52:35 AM
Quote from: "HappyHax0r"
Quote from: "ChrisCraig"
So...maybe?  I'm not going to bother then.


Cellared == Nothing? :P... are you in need of the IPS?


I was starting to think that, but I just kegged an IPA, I have an APA fermenting, I'm brewing an dry stout right now, and I'm doing a 10gallon batch at JQs next weekend.  I'll be alright.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Ian Grant on March 10, 2012, 02:15:46 PM
Next brew day I'll take a sample and test the ph of the mash.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: fakr on March 12, 2012, 07:40:56 PM
Well, if it makes anyone feel any better, I've been using 5.2ph stabilizer for several months and have been above 67% efficiency, usually 70-73%.  Just did a batch of stout last sunday, forgot the 5.2 stabilizer and my calculations are coming out that I only go 61% efficiency...

Maybe it's the grain I used, the oats, the toasted wheat....but only getting 61% efficiency re-enforces why I started using 5.2 stabilizer in the first place.

If you only got 3-4% extra efficiency, it's worth the price.

just my two cents.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Richard on March 12, 2012, 07:44:23 PM
Did you test the pH/kH of the mash when using + not using 5.2?

I bought a kit; if anyone can chuck me some 5.2 some time I'll do the math.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: fakr on March 12, 2012, 08:47:08 PM
I'll bring you enough for 10Gal this weekend Richard.

No, unfortunately did not take a ph reading of the mash.  I'll be sure to take one next time.
A little OT, but I'm going to start using iodine tincture to test my starch conversion.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Richard on March 12, 2012, 08:49:10 PM
protip (stolen from brent): iodophor at a rather stronger concentration than normal works for doing starch-tests :)
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: fakr on March 12, 2012, 08:54:17 PM
does it?  well....I just so happen to have an unopened 500ml bottle of idophor...
So at what concentration?  think the full concentration is too much?  I'm thinking it would turn anything black at that concentration...
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Richard on March 12, 2012, 08:55:15 PM
The stuff I keep in a spray bottle works, but is somewhat overkill. That's usually 2-3ml in half a litre.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: JohnQ on March 12, 2012, 09:31:52 PM
OK, don't bother bringing the iodophor, I have most of a gallon here...
I'm really interested in seeing some PH/KH testing done this weekend, it's something I haven't done at all, and I think it's part of my efficiency fluctuations.
JQ
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: fakr on March 12, 2012, 09:35:41 PM
ok, so who's going bring a ph kit?
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: brew on March 12, 2012, 09:44:28 PM
I can bring my hanna ph tester...
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: JohnQ on March 12, 2012, 09:56:24 PM
Thanks Brew, that'd be great
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: HappyHax0r on March 13, 2012, 10:21:32 PM
The reason iodine/dovodine/iodiphor all work for starch detection is because the compound in iodine binds to starch and turns it purple... It's simple high school chemistry.

To do a conversion test, vorlauf and then draw off a couple of tablespoons of wort into a glass. Drop in a couple of drops of iodine/dovodine/iodiphor... Swirl it... If it turns purple your conversion isn't complete. Discard the test sample as drinking iodine is bad for you.

If it stays relatively the same colour of wort (the iodine will copper it slightly), conversion is complete.

To see this in action cut a potato in half and drop some iodine on it, or add a tbsp of corn starch to some water, mix it, drop in two drops of indicator. Swirl it and see the pretty purple result. Not only is it neat to see it's a great experiment to show young kids!!

See? I knew taking chem instead of bio in high school.would prove to be useful later in life!
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: HappyHax0r on March 14, 2012, 09:08:48 AM
For those interested in the chemistry of it, IIRC, (this is basically from memory, so it could be wrong or not entirely accurate), your wort (if not converted) will contain starch. Starch is polymer chains of glucose, specifically amylose chains and amylopectin chains. The amylose contents are soluable in water, so literally non-converted wort *should* have uniform dispersion (at least to the points where we're concerned).

So in comes the iodine. We drop the iodine in water (or in our case wort), and it disperses, but it's not particularly soluable (that's why when you drop it in it looks cloudy and you mix it up and it it tints the water, but doesn't lose it's color until a significant time afterward). When mixed with water or in our case wort the iodine molecule slips into the center of the helical amylose glucose chains of the starch... The bonding of these two molecules changes some of the properties of both the original molecules and one of those changes is to absorb a large part of the visible light spectrum. However it doesn't absorb short-wave light, and thus produces a deep bluish-purple or black color.

IIRC it does not however do this with amylopectin...

I'm sure Thomas could explain it better, or more accurately, but if I recall that's pretty much what our high-school chem teacher taught us. Mind you we actually had chain models of the starches, and there was some math involved, and it was years ago, so take this all with a grain of salt, or a big rock of salt, or whatever.
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: TomFogarty on March 14, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
In training, mind you... in training...
I'm afraid I don't know an enormous amount about that whole shpeel, that's more the job of a chemist. Us engineers know enough chemistry, but we're more about process design that anything. I'll just design the brewery ;)
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Dave Savoie on March 14, 2012, 03:14:04 PM
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/5two-Tech.pdf
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: DandyMason on March 19, 2014, 01:40:03 PM
So has anyone on Fredericton water actually checked the ph of their mash? particularly when brewing lighter beers? Im curious...
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: DandyMason on March 20, 2014, 11:11:47 AM
So has anyone on Fredericton water actually checked the ph of their mash? particularly when brewing lighter beers? Im curious...

Im guessing the lack of response is a no. Im going to get me some pH strips and do some testing
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: Chris Craig on March 20, 2014, 11:14:56 AM
You can get yourself a digital pH meter on Amazon pretty cheap:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Pocket-LCD-Digital-PH-009-0-14-Tester-Meter-Pen-Type-Aquarium-Pool-Water-Measure-/141226455277?pt=US_Garden_Tools&hash=item20e1c0b0ed&_uhb=1
Title: Re: 5.2pH Stabilizer
Post by: DandyMason on March 20, 2014, 11:21:34 AM
You can get yourself a digital pH meter on Amazon pretty cheap:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Pocket-LCD-Digital-PH-009-0-14-Tester-Meter-Pen-Type-Aquarium-Pool-Water-Measure-/141226455277?pt=US_Garden_Tools&hash=item20e1c0b0ed&_uhb=1

That is cheap, only slightly more than I was going to pay for the strips from NG