Re: American Stout :: Sierra Nevada Stout Clone

[Richard]

Now, using a pound in a lower-gravity stout that attenuates well, however, would likely have different results.

I've noticed a couple of artifacts of my brewing process that likely lead to a more fermentable wort than my mash temperature alone would suggest. I've been meaning to write a post about it at some point, but wanted to confirm my suspicions more empirically first.

Basically when I take the first runnings of the mash, before adding the sparge water, those first runnings are then sitting in an unheated aluminium pot for around ten to fifteen minutes. Between the drop in temperature and the time they sit, I suspect this would provide a further beta-amylase mashing step, or at the very least more time to sit and mash. I'm going to immediately take the first runnings and heat them up to ensure they do not cool down into srong beta-amylase ranges, and hopefully denature the enzymes entirely in short order. A bonus of this should be that when the second runnings (sparge) are added to the brew pot, the boil can ultimately be reached faster.

My next beer is a Saison, which I need to be ultra-fermentable; however after that I'm going to repeat my stout recipe with this technique to see if it brings up the residual sweetness at all.

I add this below Shawn's quote as it may be some grains get an undeserved reputation due to people never really achieving a higher-body mashing profile because of the issues I list above. I may of course be the only one who makes this potential error, but I suspect not.

[Dave Savoie]

I always get my first runnings on the stove right away

[Richard]

Yeah I suspect it's just a piece of technique that slipped through the cracks when I was learning this

(That is to say: I'm still learning this).

[Shawn]

No, Richard, you're definitely not the only person who does this. It happens to me a lot too, for likely the same two reasons it happens to others: 1) Enzyme activity carrying on after you've vorlaufed and drained isn't something that immediately leaps to mind, and 2) It's not as easy to get the 1st runnings heating as it may sound.

Dave said he gets his 1st runnings on the stove right away... which is pretty much what you should do. BUT, what if you're not using the stove? What if you're like me, and have to lug the wort down a flight of steps, out into the garage, to get it onto the propane burner? Now, my kettle is down there... how am I supposed to sparge?

Well, I guess the easy answer is use another pot, but other than my 10-gallon kettle, the next biggest one I have is a SS 5-gallon... and sometimes, depending on boil length and the beer, my sparge is at least 5 gallons.

Oops, I'm rambling. Anyway. I guess the other option to prevent this is to do a mash-out, and stop enzymatic activity before you start to vorlauf and drain.

[JohnQ]

I did that on my last 2 brews, the first and second place ones at the competition. Of course, I had no idea why, I was just trying to reduce the time to boil.

JQ

[Jake]

Same here. I always just throw it on the stove right away to speed up the boil. I started to read both Richard and Shawn's posts with explanations, but their shitty language surrounding enzymes scares me .. but I read enough to know it is a good thing; lets just leave it at that. 8-)

[brew]

So I've noticed, after the 9 AG batches I've done so far, that when mashing at higher temps I seem to start at a higher OG, and end at a higher FG. This is the way its supposed to be correct?

I was under the impression that a typical 1.050 OG beer that was mashed at like 150-155 would generally take an hour and pretty much all the conversion would be done. I was also told that a lower temp would be more beta conversion and takes longer - does that sound right?

[Brian_S]

Hey Jake, I'll take you up on the black patent offer as I'm currently out.

B

[Richard]

So I've noticed, after the 9 AG batches I've done so far, that when mashing at higher temps I seem to start at a higher OG, and end at a higher FG. This is the way its supposed to be correct?

Ending at a higher SG - yes, starting - not so much. Mashing at a higher temperature produces a higher percentage of complex starches (maltotriose and above) - but doesn't produce more of them from nowhere. My guess would be that the higher temperature in your case also extracts more of the sugars from the grains - perhaps raise your sparge temperature further so long as you only hit a maximum temperature of 170F during the sparge.

edit: I'm not 100% on that last bit - I'd need to check it; on second thought, more complex starches may also contribute to a higher gravity from being "thicker" due to their complexity. Time to do some reading

[Dave Savoie]

I thought higher mash temp = more unfermentable sugar so high og and high fg seems right
Lower mash temp = dry beer

[Richard]

The high FG - yeah, but the higher OG - not so sure. Like I said I need to look it up (and I'm still working right now).

[Shawn]

A higher mash temp gives more unfermentable sugars, as said... but it does NOT give more sugars, period, and thus a higher OG. Higher OG doesn't necessarily mean a higher FG... what if you do a Belgian Tripel with a ton of Pilsner malt, mash at 147 F... and get an OG of 1.085? You may still end up with a very dry beer with say, an FG of 1.008.

The only real way you can get a higher OG (i.e. higher efficiency) is to tighten your crush and/or increase your sparge temperature.

[Richard]

Yeah, my understanding was as Shawn's is.

In the light of brew's observations, my guess would be that if you actually observed higher OG, it would be for one of three reasons:
1. Measurement error.
2. Because the higher mash temp made more sugars soluble, and actually increased extraction.
3. The more complex sugars contribute more to the OG due to their thickness.


And that would be in the order I'd call them. I'd have to read up to be at all sure.

Edit: Topics split due to epic OT creep - my bad

[DandyMason]

Okay ... Just trying to get this straight in my head, a little confusing since I still havent done my first all grain batch...

I like the idea of getting my first runnings on the stove right away to speed up the boil... But would you need two large boil pots? One to heat your sparge water and one to collect the first runnings to start boiling ...

[Richard]

I use two pots, yes. One is large enough for the full boil (10 gallons), and one is purely for heating water for mashing (5 gallons).