Beer Lines

[Jake]

So I'm trying to determine what I should get for beer lines to run from my basement to the bar on main level. Kegs will be in the freezer downstairs and will require about 12-15 feet of beer line to get upstairs (approx 10-ft rise). I've been doing a bit of research on this topic (should be studying), and I've came across a couple calculators to figure it out.

The formula is L = (P - (H * .5) - 1)/R ... for those that dont know:
L = length of beer line
P = Pressure
H = Height
R = Beer Line Resistance

This seems to be pretty easy, but am scared it may not work for complicated setups.

As of now, I'm not going to bother insulating the lines, although I know I probably should get some sort of glycol setup, but jsut going to try and see how it turns out ... first glass I'd assume will be pure foam, which I realize.

I'm a little caught up on beer line resistance ... My two options of beer lines seem to be 3/16 pr 1/4 inch, providing 2.7 and 0.7 as resistance respectively. This doesn't seem to make much sense to me and wondering if anyone could explain further.

If I'm running the beer approx 12 or 15 feet, would it make more sense to have more or less resistance as a starting point?

There seems to be alot of factors to take into account here such as required volumes of CO2, temp, rise, etc ... also what if I'm running the lines not only up, but across a couple feet?

All I'm getting at is that there seems to be more factors in my situation than this simple equation is taking into account (ie. unchilled lines and tower, height and distance, etc) ... I just want to get some beer lines and experiment ... would I be better of going with 3/16 or 1/4?

[Richard]

Can you link to where you got that formula from? You're missing some units and stuff.

[Jake]

Here's one of them:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/07/18/getting-a-good-pour-kegged-beer-co2-line-length-and-pressure/

I know theres more factors like volumes of Co2 (we'll say i'm around 2-2.5 for the most part), temp (which would only apply for me in the freezer), and so on.

Would it make more sense to go with the bigger lines therefore less resistance going up up up?

[Jake]

L = 13 -(10*.5) - 1/.7
L = 10 Feet .. assuming I go with 1/4 inch

 ... seems to be pretty close

[Dean]

that formula doesn't seem right, it doesn't tell you anything. You need one where the only variable is inside diameter ...or maybe pressure.

haven't read the whole thing but at first glance this one seems to be using the right terminology at least http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/beer-li ... tor-35369/

we can probably figure it out this afternoon

[Jake]

Yea for sure. The resistance factor is what represents the inside diameter ... lower number for lower resistance, so a larger diameter would lead to less resistance and faster pour.

Volumes of CO2 seems to be very important and you're advised to pressurize at your desired volumes of CO2 ... so for me, I'd be looking for an option in the 2-2.5 range, so I'd pressurize around 10-12 psi at 38 degrees ... if I want higher volumes of CO2 I would also have the option to chill more, or vice versa. Regarding hose inside diameter, since im going many feet but up and across, most people seem to think a larger inside diameter is better, increasing the flow of beer due to less resistance. I read that 3/16 in a long hose line will lead to very slow pours. What that being said, there's alot of factors that I need to take into account for the hose length. I'm starting to understand a bit better the factors surrounding this whole issue, but it should definitively be a topic of discussion today.

[Dean]

yeah I understand that but the engineer in me still thinks it's far more accurate to use a known value in an equation than a calculated (or in this case plucked off a chart somewhere) one.

from a purely fluid dynamics viewpoint and not the voice of experience beer serving viewpoint, my gut tells me to go with the larger diameter and adjust the length to suit a given pressure, although in everything I do at work I'd just crank up the pressure to deliver the required values at the end of the line. Also, the elevation change (head) is far more of a factor here than horizontal distance (length).

your best bet is probably to experiment with 2 different diameters, pressures and lengths

[Dean]

have a look at this jake: http://www.iancrockett.com/brewing/info ... ance.shtml

seems to me, to cure the foam problem we were having on Saturday you need to either refrigerate your line ($$$) or lengthen your hose a bit ....

[Dave Savoie]

I would say by reducing the pressure in your Keg slightly you will get a good pour based on that the first pour was bad and any there after were great so if you drop you PSI maybe 2-5 I bet It will be perfect every time

[Jake]

See changing the psi is what I was told not to do. Sure it would likely solve the foam problem, but it would change the volumes of co2 in tthe beer. This is unless I was to adjust the co2 whenever it is served and then readjust back to 12 psi when idle. Hose length I think is the variable to play with rather than pressure for this reason.

Question: are regulators available for multiple taps? I'd like to have 5 or 6 on here eventually and volumes of co2 will hugely differ from a stout to a wheat beer.

[Gil Breau]

yeah you can do a multi regulator setup.

They just chain off each other. If I recall, you put the highest pressure first, then reduce on the second and so forth.

[Jmac00]

They just chain off each other. If I recall, you put the highest pressure first, then reduce on the second and so forth.

Uggh.....anyone know if this HAS to be done that way? I figured it didn't matter when i set up mine... :oops:  So mine's sort of backwards...highest on the far end...

[Gil Breau]

I'm honestly not sure on anything beyond seeing them linked together. :/

[Jmac00]

yeah, i got mine linked together (pics in another thread), but never thought about the way they were linked. I could easily switch things around, but its just a PITA. The way i was thinking....they all receive the same pressure via the HI sides.....its the LO sides that regulate things down....so i figured it wouldn't matter. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Ian Grant]

I'd say your alright jmac..  If you crank up your furthest reg and you hear air going through it I'd say your good to go...