I need your opinion!

[Evil Jalapeno]

Hey guys! I don't post here very often, but I'm most certainly a lurker. My friends and I have decided to do a friendly "competition" between us and have selected IPA (american, black, english, imperial, whatever...). I want to brew a Belgian IPA, but I don't necessarily want to copy a recipe from the web, and I have never really designed my own recipes either. This is where I need help.

Here's what I came up with:

11 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM), 74.6 %       
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM), 6.8 %         
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM), 6.8 %         
1 lbs Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM), 6.8 %         
12.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM),  5.1 %         
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min,  41.1 IBUs     
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min, 12.8 IBUs     
1.00 oz Mosaic [11.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min, 6.4 IBUs     
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min,  0.0 IBUs     
1.0 pkg T-58

A few questions:
1. Would Pilsner be a better base grain? If I use Pilsner, do I need a longer boil to kill DMS?
2 Does the hop schedule make sense?
3. What would you change and why?

[Scott]

I'm not the expert....but it certainly looks like something I'd like to drink

[robcoombs]

I use pils for any Belgian styles. And yes you would want a 90 minute boil in that case.

I would move the 5min addition to flame out. And I would dry hop that with 3-4 oz. But that's just me, I'm a hop head. For me if an IPA isn't slapping me with hops it's a disappointment. But again that's just me.

I'm not sure the Rye is appropriate or that much crystal. Is this a 5gal batch?

I think a Belgian ipa should be about the yeast and the hops. I keep the grist very simple. Pils, Munich, Cara pils. I prefer a more expressive yeast, specifically wyeast French saison. It's peppery, and a little spicy and plays nicely with hops. Especially Nelson if you happen to have some. I do really like the citra and mosaic you have in there. You may want to half the 60 minute addition to give you the freedom to add more at flame out.

[jamie_savoie]

Just my 2 cents:
Pils would be a must for me.  If you have good quality Pils like Bo Pils or floor malted I would skip the munich because it provide good maltiness on its own
If it were me I would completely remove the crystal.  If you really want some, change it for C20 or 40 and lower it in half at least.
Flaked Rye is good.  More would be ok too
Cara-pils, if you remove the crystal, keep it as is.  Aim for 5% max of crystal and carapils combined
Hops schedule looks great, just the amount of hops at the end that I would double and triple and add a small DH
One last suggestion, I would use a saison strain or a really dry Belgian strain that are more on the spicy side than fruity.  A good dry option would be Belle Saison.  Pretty close to WY3711. 

[Evil Jalapeno]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll adjust my recipe to your suggestions. Pilsner/90 min. boil it is.

Crystal was mostly for a little bit of colour. What would you suggest instead?

Yes, for 5 gal. I love the characteristics of Wyeast 3711, but I've never worked with liquid yeasts (don't have a stir plate yet) and I have to admit, it kinda scares me a little. You think a starter would be necessary? Can I just do one in a growler instead of a stir plate/erlenmeyer combo?

EDIT: Jamie, I overlooked your Belle Saison suggestion. I might go for that, I'd feel more comfortable working with a dry yeast.

[robcoombs]

I don't worry about color too much honestly. Color, for me, has nothing to do with how much I enjoy an IPA. I would follow @jamie_savoie suggestions. He has far more experience than me, especially with Belgian styles. Plus he makes insanely good beer!

I wouldn't be worried about using liquid yeast at any point. I used a growler and a piece of sanitized tinfoil on top for a long time. You just shake as often as you can. But if you're more comfortable with dry, especially since you want to beat your friends, the Belle Saison would be a solid choice.

Good Luck! Let us know how it turns out. 

[jamie_savoie]

If color is important to you, you can add like 0.5-1% of carafa special. Remember that crystal add color AND sweetness.  You want this beer to be as dry as you can! I would also suggest a 149F mash temp
A 75 min boil would be fine too.  Honestly, I don't bother boiling longer with pils.
If using a fresh pack of liquid yeast (say 4-6 weeks within prod date), just pitch straight from the pack to the carboy.  Else, a starter is really easy to do like @robcoombs described

Plus he makes insanely good beer!

look who's talking!! 

[Evil Jalapeno]

Carafa Special: what's the difference between I, II and III?

Here's a revised version of the recipe. Looks better?
11 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM), 87.1 %       
1 lbs Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM), 7.9 %         
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM), 4.0 %         
2.0 oz Carafa I (337.0 SRM), 1.0 %         
1.00 oz Magnum, 60 min     
1.00 oz Citra, 10 min
1.00 oz Citra, 5 min 
1.00 oz Mosaic, 5 min     
1.00 oz Citra, 0 min
1.00 oz Mosaic, 0 min     
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) OR Danstar Belle Saison       
2.00 oz Mosaic [11.00 %] - Dry Hop7 Days, 0.0 IBUs

Est. OG: 1.065
IBU: 74
Color: 8.3 SRM
Est. ABV: 7.2%

Mash @ 149 for 60 minutes. Boil for 75 minutes.

Can I dry hop directly in the primary, or is racking to secondary necessary? Is the 10 min. Citra addition necessary?

[jamie_savoie]

I II and III is just different roast, I being the lightest

From my point of view and for my taste, that recipe look fantastic.  I personally like to make a 10 min addition, but my 0 min usually has the bulk of the late hops.  If you want it more like an ipa, double the late hops and DH, if you want it more on the Belgian side, DH only with 1oz, or even omit the DH.  I'd say now you're in the middle and that's where I'd stay

The only big change I would make is the OG.  Expect this one to dry to something in the 1.002 range.  Meaning that this beer would make something around 8.3% and would change your ibu/abv ratio.  The more the alcohol the more hops you need.  I personally would aim for something like 1.050-1.054

[robcoombs]

Jamie has everything else covered well. You don't need to transfer to secondary specifically to dry hop. If you normally just use a primary for fermentation then you can drop hop in primary. I do it all the time for hoppy beer.

I try not to rack a hoppy beer. The more oxygen exposure the hops experience, the more punch they lose. Nothing wrong with using secondary in your brewing process, whatever you're comfortable with.

[robcoombs]

This has me thinking it would be great to have another competition in the club. If we can get enough people interested.

[Evil Jalapeno]

The only big change I would make is the OG.  Expect this one to dry to something in the 1.002 range.

1.002? What exactly would make the gravity go that low? According to Wyeast's website, attenuation is between 77 and 83%!?

Nothing wrong with using secondary in your brewing process, whatever you're comfortable with.

I normally leave all my beers in the primary, unless I really need to rack for whatever reason. Glad to know I can dry hop in primary.

Thanks for all the great suggestions, it's really appreciated. Submission date is only Dec. 25th, but I wanted to prepare everything in advance to give me plenty of time. Results have to be in by Jan. 30th, I'll come back and let you know how it went!

[robcoombs]

You have plenty of time to brew and tweak the recipe as needed then.

If you mash low (149F) as Jamie suggested the wort will have a greater amount of highly fermentable sugars. Making it easier for the yeast to convert to alcohol, driving your FG lower than if you had mashed higher, say 154F.

[jamie_savoie]

x2
and most saison/belgian yeast attenuate super well.  3711/belle saison is one of those yeast that could ferment a rock!!  but even super dry it'll have a nice sickly mouthfeel, more with 3711

[Evil Jalapeno]

Learning from the gurus. I love it!