Sugar and Rice in Beer

[Jake]

So, I noticed that Richard is adding white rice to alot of his recipes ... can anyone give me the quick and dirty on the benefits of doing so, and what does it do to the beer?
Also, I know that adding sugar will boost the alcohol in the beer, but I read that it will make the beer more dry ... can anyone explain this and has anyone had experience doing this? What did it do to taste of beer? I read that it isn't a bad idea if you want to increase the ABV and it will thin out the beer, but added sugar should only account for a small portion of your fermentable sugars. Kit beer will often have that cidery taste to it, and the consensus seems to be because 40% or more of the fermentable sugar is coming from added sugar.

[Kyle]

Here goes:

benefits: keeps beer light in colour while boosting booze, cheaper than using malted grain, gives a very light bodied character to the beer while still being normal abv.

pitfalls:generates a flavour that some like (but I find objectionable) that is cidery for corn sugar above about 15% of fermentables, and for rice, I've never brewed with it, but it gives a creamy, in my opinion, unpleasant flavour. Note that using rice hulls (as opposed to grains of rice) in the mash is something very different: a technique to ease run-off and it does not affect the flavour.

Consideratons:
Because corn sugar is 100% fermentable by beer yeast as opposed to about 70% IIRC for barley malt, the resulting beer will lack expected residual sweetness.

Adding brown sugar (from sugar cane) or molasses can generate nice flavours of caramel, but should be used conceptualized as a spice as opposed to as a main ingredient.

For high gravity brews, you might use liquid or dry malt extract as they have the body that the simple sugars lack, but be careful as some stores sell malt extract that actually has corn or cane sugar in it.

[Shawn]

Adding corn sugar or, preferably (since it's cheaper), regular old table sugar, is completely appropriate for a lot of beer styles. While it DOES boost alcohol content, where you're really looking to use it is beers where you WANT a really dry finish.

For example, a lot of Belgian styles use sugar, because they're MEANT to finish bone-dry. A recipe I'm going to be brewing next week is for a Belgian Golden Strong Ale... supposed to be a lot like Duvel. All it is is Pilsner malt to about 1.047 OG, and then 3 lbs of table sugar. Yep, 3 lbs. Sounds like a lot, but Duvel finishes damn dry, and the only way to get that dryness is by using table sugar. The Pliny the Elder clone recipe I made a few months ago also used almost a lb of table sugar, because a lot of IPAs are meant to finish dry as well.

And don't be too taken by a lot of people arguing that sugar gives a cidery taste. I think a lot of "experts" have agreed that that isn't the case.

Would I use sugar in my beer just to boost alcohol content? No, but I would in styles where you want some extra alcohol and a nice, dry finish. I should say I also brewed a Belgian Tripel last year that had 2.5 lbs of table sugar, and it didn't taste cidery or off at all.

[brew]

Actually I've had beer with too much table sugar in it - cidery - definitely - I think its more a matter of how much sugar you use, and whether or not there's something else in there to go with it. You can dry it out by adding table sugar, but that only works if you replace malt with sugar. Simply adding sugar won't dry it out by itself, it just adjusts the FG lower as you replace malt with sugar - (unless you add so much sugar that the alcohol kills the yeast which is do-able...). If you're not replacing malt but just adding sugar, well then you increase total volume (by adding alcohol) and you will have a lower FG and it will seem dryer.

If you had two batches with 10 lbs of malt, add sugar to one and water to the other, you'd have more alcohol in the one with sugar, and an (only slightly) lower FG would be due to that, not because there is less complex sugar that couldn't be broken down (from the malt) but the resulting difference in dryness wouldn't be noticeable...

Recently I discovered (with my Stout - which turned out excellent) that dryness is accomplished in a more tasty way by mashing at a lower temp. I accidentally screwed up my second infusion (did a protein rest) and ended up mashing at 148. The Stout is a bit dry but the flavor is excellent...

[Shawn]

I think its more a matter of how much sugar you use, and whether or not there's something else in there to go with it. You can dry it out by adding table sugar, but that only works if you replace malt with sugar. Simply adding sugar won't dry it out by itself, it just adjusts the FG lower as you replace malt with sugar - (unless you add so much sugar that the alcohol kills the yeast which is do-able...). If you're not replacing malt but just adding sugar, well then you increase total volume (by adding alcohol) and you will have a lower FG and it will seem dryer.

If you had two batches with 10 lbs of malt, add sugar to one and water to the other, you'd have more alcohol in the one with sugar, and an (only slightly) lower FG would be due to that, not because there is less complex sugar that couldn't be broken down (from the malt) but the resulting difference in dryness wouldn't be noticeable...

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you're saying here... can you word it another way? I've read it a few times but I find it confusing.

[brew]

Sorry Shawn - was just saying I'm not a big fan of the taste of fermented table sugar, although my taste buds aren't that good so a pound or two I don't notice much... I understand you have had good success with table sugar on past ferments, but I really don't like the taste / smell that comes from sugar wash in my beer - really turns me off but I know there are folks who like it... a matter of preference, but I do know there is a definite flavor effect from the addition of table sugar, I would call it a weaker / thinner / cidery taste...

Was also saying sugar doesn't really "dry" out a mash, just adds volume largely in the form of alcohol... for me, if I want a dryer mash, then I would sac rest at a lower temp... I want more alcohol? Add more grain / dme / vodka / etc...

Perhaps you were thinking "dry" to mean both more alcohol by volume and less sugar (or body?) by volume? If that's the case, we are talking about the same thing - so I apologize if I made it confusing...

[Shawn]

No need to apologize. I think what confused me the most was when you said that adding sugar adds volume to beer... but, maybe you mean it increases ALCOHOL by volume (ABV)?

When I say sugar dries out beer, I refer to it as when you see people's tasting notes referring to a beer as "dry", which means the opposite of sweet, in beer tasting anyway. The drier a beer finishes, the less sweet it is. That's why it has so much to do with a lower FG, because the lower the FG is, the less residual sugars there are left behind to make the beer sweet.

I know some people don't like using sugar in beer because of how it makes it taste... maybe it's even the lack of sweetness they don't like. It's ok not to like every type of beer, anyway... I, for one, love Tripels, but I know there's a lot of people who don't particularly care for them.

[brew]

Yes indeed - my last experience with sugar is with Beer Kits (in a can - yeah I know) - using regular sugar instead of dextrose - too lazy to hit the store... with 1 KG of sugar the difference was not completely profound (as the beer is yuk anyway) but it was definitely noticeable... the time I tried it in real beer was this year also and it did remind me a bit of that taste I remember from the kits...

Now Ginger beer is a whole different story for me - doesn't remind me of beer but of a wine. I used a bunch of sugar in that recipe, but when I drink it I don't expect a beer taste, but that gingery / winey (yes even cidery) taste... Not likely something everyone would prefer though...

[Richard]

it gives a creamy, in my opinion, unpleasant flavour

That sounds more like unconverted starch, to me. I'm going to have to do a blind test with you some time

I already posted my $0.02 over here:

viewtopic.php?p=4723#p4723

[Shawn]

it gives a creamy, in my opinion, unpleasant flavour

That sounds more like unconverted starch, to me. I'm going to have to do a blind test with you some time

Definitely... table sugar or corn sugar shouldn't make the beer taste creamy... you shouldn't be able to taste it at all unless it wasn't "taken care of" by the yeast.

[Richard]

Aye... rice does contain some proteins, mind, so perhaps Kyle is tasting that - although if the beer is fully clarified that shouldn't be a factor.