New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association

Brewing => Yeast => Topic started by: ECH on March 29, 2018, 11:17:00 PM

Title: WLP655
Post by: ECH on March 29, 2018, 11:17:00 PM
So, (this might be long winded)

Plan on doing a saison tomorrow (good Friday), simple pale malt (actually Horten Ridge Winter Pale), Rye Malt and Oats. Hopped lightly with 1/2oz of Mosaic, 1oz of Mosaic Cryo in the whirlpool. Another oz of Cryo in the dry hop.

Had thought of splitting the batch and maybe throwing some Brett in one half, but then didn't think Noble would have anything like that so resigned myself against doing that.

Low and behold, they had one vial of WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix 1, on sale ($4), because it was past its expiry date (March 5/18).

I bought it on a whim, I mean $4, if I am out $4 because it is no longer any good, no biggie. Figured I would just build it back up through a couple of starter steps. However, reading up on it, it got me back into thinking of splitting the batch again.

Sooooo, make the batch, ferment as normal with Belle Saison, peel off half of it to a glass carboy and pitch the vial. It being past its best before date (albeit early March), should I do a starter where it will only be 2.5-3 gal at the most? Or just pitch it as is? I assume being past the Best before date, probably doesn't mean much for the brett parts of the yeast, just not sure how sour or funky it might get. What, if any fruit could/should I use with it, being that the beer will be hopped with Mosaic? Thinking that much of any fruit might obliterate the Mosaic. I know the WLP655 is going to take months to do its magic, is there much point to dry hop it once it is towards the end before bottling? Or just leave it as is?

Temps with the 655, room temp? Or cooler? Or does it matter?

Sorry for all the questions, first time doing anything in the sour/brett realm
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: feldmann on March 30, 2018, 02:41:44 PM
I generally don't build starters with blends because certain strains may become dominant, especially with yours being older. I've only used this strain once and it was for a flanders red I was ageing long term (2+ years) so it had time to clean up any off flavours that would have occurred at the beginning from under pitching.

With this blend you're probably looking at ageing a minimum of 6-8 months and in that time most of the hops from brew day are going to have considerably faded. I'm not sure if your goal is for the mosaic to be centre stage, but if thats the case then I wouldn't recommend using this blend.

Fruit is really a personal preference. I always recommend having a general idea of what you want to use but save the final decision for after the beer is finished so that way you know what compliments it best, especially with bugs which can sometimes be unpredictable.

If you want to get the max sourness and funk then I'd leave it somewhere dark, around 22C and forget about it for a minimum of 8 months. If you're just looking for something to add some slight funk and complexity to your saison then I wouldn't pitch this blend.
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on April 01, 2018, 04:21:21 PM
I had planned on just a Rye Saison with Mosaic. But saw this and thought I would take a shot at it.

Think once it is done with the Belle Saison yeast, I am just going to move it all to glass (primary fermentor is a Fast Ferment), drop the 655 and forget about it for 6-9 months, won't bother with the dry hop until it is done with (or the fruit) if I use any at all.

I unfortunately don't have a dark warm place to put it. Upstairs is pretty bright and warm, downstairs is dark and cool. So it will stay upstairs where it is warmer, and just cover it with a blanket as best I can.

So even where it is expired, you would suggest not doing a starter?
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: robcoombs on April 01, 2018, 04:46:02 PM
I would use something other than Belle Saison, that strain attenuates so highly there won't be much left for the Brett or bacteria to work on.

Another consideration is your hopping rate. Anything above 10ibu is too high for even the most resistant lacto strains. Which means pedio is going to be doing the bulk of your souring. Which is fine but it just needs more time, definitely the 6-9 months already mentioned, minimum.

I don't mind starters so much for mixed cultures but it will create drift over time. The good news is that you don't need nearly as much brett in secondary so you're probably five without a starter.

I wouldn't worry about fruit yet. I would make that decision based on flavor closer to packaging. For what it's worth, in a light base peach, apricot are always solid choices.

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Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on April 02, 2018, 01:35:21 AM
Had a 1/2 oz of Mosaic at 60. The rest other 1/2 oz was whirlpool with a 1oz of Mosaic Cryo.

1/2 oz was at flame out, the cryo I put in once the temp hit 180F for 20mins, then cooled.

1/2oz of Mosaic at 60 says 18IBU, that is assuming that what Noble Grape buys is around 12.25% (what Beersmith attributes Mosaic at)

The one thing I never understand with Beersmith is hops put in a flameout, don't apparently add any IBUs to the beer, but any added in whirlpool does.

OG was 1.052, Beersmith estimates FG at 1.010. Worth keeping an eye on it and maybe transfer at 1.015 or 1.020 for the Brett to have something to chew on?

No worries about forgetting about it for 6-8 months, figured that anyway.
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on April 02, 2018, 01:37:38 AM
At the end when I am ready to bottle, is it worth hanging on to the dregs in the bottom of the fermentor? Are the wild yeasts like this treated the same as a normal yeast as far as harvesting?
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: jamie_savoie on April 02, 2018, 10:20:26 AM
I agree with Rob that Belle saison attenuate too much to make a complex sour. If doing a single step mash, I would mash super high (160-165F) and for about 20 min. That would make a rich dextrin wort to feed the brett and pedio over the course of the year or more.

If you already made the beer and still think of pitching that sour blend, I would add some malto-dextrin in secondary to feed the bugs.

As far as doing starters for blends I donít care that much, I do it all the time. Sure it change the ratio a little over time but with sour itís not really linear. I re-used WLP670 for like 10 times and it didnít change that much over 5 years of re-using it (it was actually better). As long as the right bugs are there.

When thereís pedio in the mix I tend to wait a minimum of a year before packaging. Pedio can produces ďropinessĒ that brett need to clean up after. Ropiness in the bottle is not really cool but if it happen leave the beer for another 3 months.

As for your question for the dregs (or cake), if it made a good beer I re-use in another sour. I have cakes here that Iíve re-used for at least 5-6 years in a row
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on April 02, 2018, 02:08:23 PM
Will have to see if I have an Malto. I have some corn sugar, but I assume that wouldn't work.

How much would you use? For say about 15 liters?
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: jamie_savoie on April 03, 2018, 08:07:38 AM
Will have to see if I have an Malto. I have some corn sugar, but I assume that wouldn't work.

How much would you use? For say about 15 liters?
Yeah it need to be dextrin, dextrose would be metabolize by the sacch which is not what you want
Iíd say about 1/2 to 3/4 pound (boiled with some water)
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on September 27, 2018, 12:53:59 AM
OK, been since Good Friday, and have been itching to try this, so cracked the fermenter open on this today to give it a try to see if it had done anything. Slight pellicle haze on the top.

Not much, if any sour notes to this, which I will blame on my IBU (roughly 20IBUs when I dropped the WLP655 in), but nice easy drinking brett character to it however, hint of sweetness on the back end to it, but very little saison qualities from the Belle Saison yeast.

OG of 1.053, 1.010 after primary, and now after 6 months with the WLP655 it sits at 1.000

So, I am at a quandary. Was expecting it to be sour (but it is ok that it isn't), and was going to add fruit puree to balance it out, hadn't really decided on what fruit, but was leaning towards raspberry, enough sweetness to balance, but still provides a bit of tart quality, but was open to other fruit, hadn't really settled on one (assuming Scoop & Save has fruit puree)

1. Would you put fruit in this? And if so, what? And how much? About 4.5gallons of beer in the carboy. 2? 3lbs?
2. If adding fruit, would you rack the beer onto the puree (off the yeast) or just add the puree to the carboy?
3. How long would you let it sit? 2 weeks or so?
4. Would the fruit kill the brett character that is in it, which is fairly nice at the moment.

Or, 2nd option, since my original saison recipe was to add 2oz of Mosaic in the dry hop, should I just do that, and leave it as is otherwise?

With the dry hop, I assume I could just drop the pellets into the carboy as is, and not have to rack the beer off of the yeast.

Or a wacky third option of both a fruit puree and a dry hop. And I guess a 4th option would be to not do anything, and bottle it as is.

Sorry for all the question, but first time using a wild yeast, and so far so good, don't want to muck it up!
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: jamie_savoie on September 27, 2018, 10:23:33 AM
Adding fruits is entirely up to you and whatís the vision you have of the finish beer.  If you say itís good now maybe bottle half and fruit the other half. Best way to learn is to experiment.
It depends on the fruit but I like average of 1.5-3 pounds per gallon, more for some, less for other. 
You can add the fruits right in the carboy without worrying about the cake.
If adding fruits now I would wait 2-3 months.
Some good reading here
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: feldmann on September 27, 2018, 11:06:31 AM
Whether or not to add fruit and what type I think would really depend on taste, which is something that's hard for us to judge. Raspberries are always one of my favorite fruits for beer and I think they work in so many different styles. If you're afraid of overwhelming some of the more delicate flavours I would add a smaller amount. You can always add more if its not enough, but you can't remove it if you've added too much.

Brett character will increase and mature over time. If you add the dry hop my only concern would be achieving a nice balance between your fruit, hops and brett. I would also maybe air on the side of restraint and only dry hop 1 oz and see what it taste like and add another oz if you think you need it.

I also personally almost never rack off the yeast cake until I'm ready to package anymore so I add fruit and dry hops right into primary most of the time.

Something you could consider is maybe bottling a few right now as is (like 5 or 6?) just to compare and see the difference of what you decide to do.
Title: Re: WLP655
Post by: ECH on September 29, 2018, 12:29:10 PM
OK, think I have decided on what to do.

Going to rack half of it off, and bottle as is, no dry hop, no nothing.

The other half, going to add raspberries to it, and let it sit for another month or 2. Wife came home with 2 bags of the quick freeze frozen raspberries that she got on sale at GT Boutique, $2.50/bag, each bag is 400grams, so just under 2lbs for 2gallons, should be good.

Bottle it in smaller 355ml bottles so maybe it goes farther. Should be interesting to see the differences.