New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association
Brewing => Technique => Topic started by: Richard on October 17, 2011, 05:04:54 PM
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Now, using a pound in a lower-gravity stout that attenuates well, however, would likely have different results.
I've noticed a couple of artifacts of my brewing process that likely lead to a more fermentable wort than my mash temperature alone would suggest. I've been meaning to write a post about it at some point, but wanted to confirm my suspicions more empirically first.
Basically when I take the first runnings of the mash, before adding the sparge water, those first runnings are then sitting in an unheated aluminium pot for around ten to fifteen minutes. Between the drop in temperature and the time they sit, I suspect this would provide a further beta-amylase mashing step, or at the very least more time to sit and mash. I'm going to immediately take the first runnings and heat them up to ensure they do not cool down into srong beta-amylase ranges, and hopefully denature the enzymes entirely in short order. A bonus of this should be that when the second runnings (sparge) are added to the brew pot, the boil can ultimately be reached faster.
My next beer is a Saison, which I need to be ultra-fermentable; however after that I'm going to repeat my stout recipe with this technique to see if it brings up the residual sweetness at all.
I add this below Shawn's quote as it may be some grains get an undeserved reputation due to people never really achieving a higher-body mashing profile because of the issues I list above. I may of course be the only one who makes this potential error, but I suspect not.
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I always get my first runnings on the stove right away
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Yeah I suspect it's just a piece of technique that slipped through the cracks when I was learning this ;)
(That is to say: I'm still learning this).
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No, Richard, you're definitely not the only person who does this. It happens to me a lot too, for likely the same two reasons it happens to others: 1) Enzyme activity carrying on after you've vorlaufed and drained isn't something that immediately leaps to mind, and 2) It's not as easy to get the 1st runnings heating as it may sound.
Dave said he gets his 1st runnings on the stove right away... which is pretty much what you should do. BUT, what if you're not using the stove? What if you're like me, and have to lug the wort down a flight of steps, out into the garage, to get it onto the propane burner? Now, my kettle is down there... how am I supposed to sparge?
Well, I guess the easy answer is use another pot, but other than my 10-gallon kettle, the next biggest one I have is a SS 5-gallon... and sometimes, depending on boil length and the beer, my sparge is at least 5 gallons.
Oops, I'm rambling. Anyway. I guess the other option to prevent this is to do a mash-out, and stop enzymatic activity before you start to vorlauf and drain.
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I did that on my last 2 brews, the first and second place ones at the competition. Of course, I had no idea why, I was just trying to reduce the time to boil.
JQ
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Same here. I always just throw it on the stove right away to speed up the boil. I started to read both Richard and Shawn's posts with explanations, but their shitty language surrounding enzymes scares me .. but I read enough to know it is a good thing; lets just leave it at that. 8-)
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So I've noticed, after the 9 AG batches I've done so far, that when mashing at higher temps I seem to start at a higher OG, and end at a higher FG. This is the way its supposed to be correct?
I was under the impression that a typical 1.050 OG beer that was mashed at like 150-155 would generally take an hour and pretty much all the conversion would be done. I was also told that a lower temp would be more beta conversion and takes longer - does that sound right?
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Hey Jake, I'll take you up on the black patent offer as I'm currently out.
B
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So I've noticed, after the 9 AG batches I've done so far, that when mashing at higher temps I seem to start at a higher OG, and end at a higher FG. This is the way its supposed to be correct?
Ending at a higher SG - yes, starting - not so much. Mashing at a higher temperature produces a higher percentage of complex starches (maltotriose and above) - but doesn't produce more of them from nowhere. My guess would be that the higher temperature in your case also extracts more of the sugars from the grains - perhaps raise your sparge temperature further so long as you only hit a maximum temperature of 170F during the sparge.
edit: I'm not 100% on that last bit - I'd need to check it; on second thought, more complex starches may also contribute to a higher gravity from being "thicker" due to their complexity. Time to do some reading ;)
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I thought higher mash temp = more unfermentable sugar so high og and high fg seems right
Lower mash temp = dry beer
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The high FG - yeah, but the higher OG - not so sure. Like I said I need to look it up (and I'm still working right now).
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A higher mash temp gives more unfermentable sugars, as said... but it does NOT give more sugars, period, and thus a higher OG. Higher OG doesn't necessarily mean a higher FG... what if you do a Belgian Tripel with a ton of Pilsner malt, mash at 147 F... and get an OG of 1.085? You may still end up with a very dry beer with say, an FG of 1.008.
The only real way you can get a higher OG (i.e. higher efficiency) is to tighten your crush and/or increase your sparge temperature.
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Yeah, my understanding was as Shawn's is.
In the light of brew's observations, my guess would be that if you actually observed higher OG, it would be for one of three reasons:
1. Measurement error.
2. Because the higher mash temp made more sugars soluble, and actually increased extraction.
3. The more complex sugars contribute more to the OG due to their thickness.
And that would be in the order I'd call them. I'd have to read up to be at all sure.
Edit: Topics split due to epic OT creep - my bad ;)
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Okay ... Just trying to get this straight in my head, a little confusing since I still havent done my first all grain batch...
I like the idea of getting my first runnings on the stove right away to speed up the boil... But would you need two large boil pots? One to heat your sparge water and one to collect the first runnings to start boiling ...
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I use two pots, yes. One is large enough for the full boil (10 gallons), and one is purely for heating water for mashing (5 gallons).
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No you don't need 2 boil pots. I drain my first runnings into a bucket, drain my sparge water immediately after into the mash tun from the brew kettle on the stove, then dump the bucket of first runnings back into the pot, and then drain the sparge into the bucket, dumping the bucket into the boil pot on the stove which would already be heating up for 20ish mins
Simple as that :banana:
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True enough... If a bucket works, I will use a bucket..
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Jake: You leave the boil pot dry on the stove for 20 mins? I figure you might get some caramelisation that way, but then I've seen people drop hot rocks into wort to get it to a boil so it's no doubt a valid technique. I may of course be misunderstanding what you're saying.
Everyone has their variations on technique, not everything is a case of right and wrong.
Moreover I did a little looking around and regarding the 3 possibilities I mentioned, I'm pretty sure it's a case of measurement error. Mash temp should not affect OG - however, sparge temp will.
I am thinking once again, that issues like this should be canonised into the wiki (it's still there) - it is rather confusing to newcomers to have to sift through these conversations for the salient, correct information.
Exec: we should discuss a process for canonisation, which of course should include fact-checking and a decent editorial process.
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I'll take the pot off the burner until the first runnings are in the pot, then I'll put it back on the heat. I never leave the pot on the heat when empty. Accidentally made the mistake once and I smelled like my house was on fire.
For my sparge temp, I'll ususally bring the water up to between 182-184 to achieve the 168 range when I have 8-10 pounds of grain, and I'll bring it up to about 186-188 when I'm using more grain. This is assuming I'm mashing in the low to mid 150's and ssuming my mash ratio is around 1.25-1.33 qts/lb. Not a very scientific approach to doing it, but seems to get me in the 166-169 range everytime.
On another note, my last batch I double crushed the grain through my mill and my efficiency improved nicely ... around 10%ish. Another thing, I read that when you're grinding the grain with a power-drill, not to go full throttle. I guess it doesn't do quite as good of a job crushing the grain, so you should just go around half speed ... not sure why this is off the top of my head; has anyone ever heard this?
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I'll take the pot off the burner until the first runnings are in the pot, then I'll put it back on the heat. I never leave the pot on the heat when empty.
Yeah I misunderstood what you said then; I did think it was a little odd...
... Regarding the temperatures; as I said to Duncan the other day - the equations are nice for a starting point, but you must learn your system. With a few degrees either way being the difference between a low and medium bodied beer, knowing your system can be the difference between good and excellent beer.
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regarding the sparge, do you always try to hit 168-170? That's what I've read and what I've been striving for. I know above that you'll get the bitter tannins and below that just isn't as efficient (from what I understand).
Low and medium bodied beer. wouldn't this be determinded primarily by your mash temps, not so much the sparge? That's speaking generally, because I'm sure (for some scientific reason) the sparge temp is important also, but wouldn't the mash contribute to 90% of the body of the beer. This would be assuming you can hit a sparge temp between 160-170, which I'm sure just about everyone in this group could do consistently.
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Yeah I shoot for 170, and right now with the temperature at about 16F ambient and a standard 1.25 ratio I need about 187F to bring up a 152F mash to 170F.
The sparge is to extract remaining sugars, not to continue enzymatic activity. 170F should fairly rapidly denature the remaining alpha-amylase enzymes.
Interestingly, I read yesterday (here: http://technocosm.org/brew/brewout-pt2.html (http://technocosm.org/brew/brewout-pt2.html)) that beta-amylase denatures (i.e. goes "dead") after 40-60 minutes at standard mashing temperatures (149F is cited). Alpha amylase is likewise dead after two hours at a slightly higher temperature (153F). As a side-note (slightly OT) this would definitely suggest that the "all night" mashing technique is pointless (although I don't know anyone round here who does that). It would also suggest however that the first runnings sitting in the boil tun will only be "under the influence" of alpha-amylase.
Apologies if I'm geeking out again; I am going to try to write a more abridged, pragmatic, non-geeked-out version of mashing parameters into the wiki once I've had time to digest enough of this stuff and verify the information.
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I am going to try to write a more abridged, pragmatic, non-geeked-out version of....
My five bucks says you can't :banana:
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Here's my approach. Mash at 149 for dry thin beer, 154 for medium bodied beer, and 158 for full bodied beer. Aim to sparge at 168-170 ... I've sparged at 160 with no perceived flaws.
Mash temp calculators are easy to come by online, but have struggled to find a sparge temp calculator (not even sure if they exist). I'll heat my sparge water between 182 -188, depending on the amount of grain I use and mash ratio (which, for me is almost always 1.33). These rules hold true for me on 95% of the batches I'd be making ... haven't tried anything but this at this point.
Can't get any easier that that I don't think :lol:
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I'll match that 5
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Deal... but it may be a while coming :P
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Deal... but it may be a while coming :P
the more abridged pragmatic, non-geeked-out version, or the $5 (edit: $10)? :cheers:
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I had read some time ago that the optimal grain mill roller speed is 400rpm, which can be challenging for homebrewers.
Too slow a crush produces a more coarse crushed grain, and too fast produces too fine a chrush grain.
Ah, found the article:
http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/a ... techniques (http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/45-mashing/1135-mashing-variables-techniques)
I was actually thinking of hitting up princess auto for a cheap electric motor and a couple of pullies to power my grain mill and aim for as close to 400rpm as possible.
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"(Their average speed is 400 RPM, for the optimal 9.8 inch (250 mm) diameter rollers)."
The malt-mills we have are certainly not 9.8-inch diameter rollers; more like 1.5 inch - I would suggest that 400RPM on those things will potentially wear them out and will not be as optimal as it might be for rollers 2/3 of a foot wide :P
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"(Their average speed is 400 RPM, for the optimal 9.8 inch (250 mm) diameter rollers)."
The malt-mills we have are certainly not 9.8-inch diameter rollers; more like 1.5 inch - I would suggest that 400RPM on those things will potentially wear them out and will not be as optimal as it might be for rollers 2/3 of a foot wide :P
There was no apparent tachometer present, but the last time I had the good fortune to observe your milling operation in full-swing the sweat rolling off your brow would indicate an estimated steady 60 -75 RPM. Then again, during the period of my scrutinization and subsequent inquiry as to the apparent lack of power drill, the foul look on your face clearly indicated a drop in the aforementioned rate
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There was no apparent tachometer present, but the last time I had the good fortune to observe your milling operation in full-swing the sweat rolling off your brow would indicate an estimated steady 60 -75 RPM.
I think I came in at the tail end of it, looked more like 30 rpm to me... :banana:
Sorry Richard, couldn't resist!!
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the foul look on your face clearly indicated a drop in the aforementioned rate
This alone is the only tachometer home brewers need:
Face of concentration - > Max RPMs (~150-200)
Foul, exhausted look -> Min RPMs (~50-75)
Scale to current rpm level dependent on progress of hopelessness on millers face, +/- X% where x is the perspiration level :P
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lol!
I guess a quick calculation of the outer speed of the 250mm rollers at 400rpm would allow me to calculate the actual rpm required for the little rollers in my setup. Thanks for pointing that out richard. my crush would have been too fast.
I'm still going to setup an electric motor and pullies to do the job.
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Face of concentration - > Max RPMs (~150-200)
Foul, exhausted look -> Min RPMs (~50-75)
Scale to current rpm level dependent on progress of hopelessness on millers face, +/- X% where x is the perspiration level :P
Looks right - I fear the math for the scale is a bit complicated though, I suspect the Face of concentration, lets call it mu, and the foul exhausted look, lets call it beta, are inversely and exponentially related. Further, I suspect there is a coefficient of brewing desire expressed as a factor of X above which is pivotal to the entire equation - a quadratic I'm guessing?
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ugh ...quadratic ....flashback ...make the bad man stop!
of course there's another possible variable in there too ...that being the number of smartasses present and offering advice?
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Don't forget the beer ingested beforehand!
The sad thing is, all the extra variables are all negatively inducing ones...lol
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fakr: I think if you follow through with that logic you'll actually end up with a speed even faster than 400RPM... 10 inch diameter would be 31inch-ish circumference, so 400RPM would be 12400 inch/minute - the equivalent on a 2-inch (6.2-ish inch circumference) roller would be 2000RPM :P
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Gosh, my biggest concern is to make sure I don't flip the crusher and spill the grains all over the floor when I'm crushing. If I can dough-in without incident, I'm happy!
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Crush ? I usually stomp my grain
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lmfao
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Crush ? I usually stomp my grain
I was there the day Richard spread your grain out on the floor and demonstrated the procedure :banana:
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:oops:
It's ok; when Jake brought my splits over he did the same to one of my bags - karma, eh ;)
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hahaha ..I almost did it to myself too - those bags are thin
the funniest part at Jake's was a few minutes later when the vacuum showed up with the message "Jake's girlfriend says to give this to Richard"
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I actually used a rolling pin to crush my grain once :roll:
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I really hope that was only for partial mash/specialty grains :P
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.
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True that Richard...2000rpm is unreasonable for my grain mill.
I'm just going to go with the manufacturer's recommendation of 500rpm for a 6LB per minute crush....or even step it down to 400rpm and save the wear and tear..
BUT I'm still going to do it with pullys dammit! ;)
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BUT I'm still going to do it with pullys dammit! ;)
Go for it Jr.
JQ
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lol thanks senior!
I'll take pics and post them...my girlfriend has an old sewing maching table that looks ideal for mounting the crusher, motor, pulleys and nifty onoff switch, with room underneath for a bucket.
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Are you using a standard barley-crusher? i.e. the two on the left here:
(http://www.barleycrusher.com/images/barleycrusherseries.jpg)
Where are these manufacturer's recommendations? I don't remember getting any with mine :frazzled:
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That's the one, here you go Richard:
"•The standard hopper holds an even 7 pounds and the optional large hopper holds 15 pounds. Using a 3/8 drillmotor at 500 RPM gives you a crush rate of 6 pounds a minute making the big grain bills fast and easy.
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http://www.barleycrusher.com/barleycrusher.php (http://www.barleycrusher.com/barleycrusher.php)
I interpret that as a recommended or "acceptable" rpm from the manufacturer.
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lol thanks senior!
...my girlfriend has an old sewing machine...
HOW THE MEDIA DISTORTS THE TRUTH AND TAKES THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT TO GET YOU IN BIG TROUBLE...
Thanks for offering to have your girlfriend to sew the grain bags!
JQ
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fakr: nice; didn't see that before :)
I assumed if a drill were attached that it'd have to be limited to <60RPM to match the same behaviour as a person. Good to know.
I however will continue with the manual effort - a little exercise is good for you :P