Harvesting yeast from bottle conditioned beer

[Waterlogged]

Since my brother gave me a Blanche de Chambly beer last weekend, I am determined to brew a clone version.  I found a clone recipe at http://danielshomebrew.blogspot.ca/2010 ... clone.html and purchased all the ingredients, except for the yeast, which I cannot find.  I COWORKER HAS SOME WHITE LAB 410 if I want it but I decided I would like to experiment with harvesting yeast from a few bottles of Blanch Chambly.  Jamie Savoi had some Wyeast 3684 he said he could bring me in a few weeks but since I am a little impatient, and now have all the ingredients I figured I would up my beer making game and try to harvest some bottled yeast.  He did say, and I have read on the web that they use different yeast at bottling. Starting to ramble so back to the subjest at hand.

I sterilized some equipment in boiling water, pasturized 100 ml of water and 10 grams of wheat dry extract (wish I had some DME but did not), added the wort to a sterilized mason jar, drank two Blanch Chambly and added the sediment to the cooled wort, aerated and have it sitting and a dark spot behind the toaster with the cap just sitting on top.

So, I have  few questions to you experienced beer makers.

1)  Should I take Jamie up on his offer and wait, or go with my coworkers white lab 410?
2) Are the steps I took for this yeast harvest proper steps?
3) if the yeast start to multiply, I will need to make a started for a 5 gallon batch.  How should I proceed and how much of a starter would I need?

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.  There is definetly a quality to the aroma and flavor of the original beer that I really Iike.  Not sure how to descibe it.  Am now drinking a Noire de Chamby and get the same aroma.  Anyway if this is more due to yeast than grains or hops I may descide to wait for Jamies return to Fredericton.

Thanks

[Chris Craig]

This site is a good start: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

They problem you have is determining your yeast density.  If you don't know how much yeast you have, you can't accurately determine your starter size. Furthermore, because you're using a small amount of yeast, you need to step your starter up to get good propagation.  You made a 100ml starter.  Once that ferments, before it's finished even, I'd next make a 1L starter, then repeat for a 2L starter.

If you really want to understand what's happening, pick up a copy of Jamil Zainasheff's book "Yeast".  There's a chapter on yeast growth and propagation that'll help you out.

As with all things beer, now you know more and understand less

[Waterlogged]

That is a really good quote and I plan on over using it in the near future.  I will see if I can get  copy of that book.  I figured I would need at least a 1 liter starter but will definitly up that to two.  Thanks for the input Chris, I knew I put the question i the right hands.

[jamie_savoie]

The steps I do to cultivate yeast from a bottle are pretty much like you did except I also use a small butane torch to sterilize the opening of the bottle once open.  I do 100ml a starter for 2-3 days, and then add 500ml for 2 days, the 1-2L

The "problem" I see is that the yeast you’re cultivating won’t be the actual yeast you want.  Unibroue centrifuge their beer after fermentation which removes most of the yeast then they bottle condition with neutral ale yeast or champagne yeast (I have no clue what they use).  So maybe the yeast you’re cultivating really is the yeast they used for bottle conditioning and won’t have the fruity character you’re looking for.

What you could to is split the batch in 2 and ferment one with the WL or WY and the other with the yeast you cultivated, ferment then compare later. It's a great way to learn and test

good luck  

[Waterlogged]

Well, so far there has been no sign of fermentation in my little 100 ml starter.  I will see what happens by tomorrow and make a call then.  I just received my OBK order so am pumped to scale up to full grain once the grain order is in.  I have a vial of WL belgium WIT II so may just go that way.  A coworker ordered it but said I could either have it or he would make a large starter with it and give me half.  I am temped to try the technique Chris posted about harvesting some of the starter for a future batch.  Thanks for the info about Unibrou and the centirfuge.  That may be the deciding factor.

Reid

[Richard]

Starters from dregs are a real hit-and-miss game - without a microbiology lab (laminar flow etc - see that book CC suggested) you're pretty much guaranteed contaminants unless you're very careful or just plain lucky. From experience (my own and others' who I've spoken to) - about 1/3 are viable once stepped up to starters if you're just being casual about it.

[Chris Craig]

Either way, you'll have to let us know how this goes.  Oh, and if the starter tastes bad, don't use it.

[jamie_savoie]

Well, so far there has been no sign of fermentation in my little 100 ml starter.

From my experience, you won’t see much activity from the 100ml starter.  Step it up to 500ml after 2-4 days and see if there’s activity before giving up

[Waterlogged]

Well, my harvested yeast is bubbling away after 5 days.  I also made a started with some white labs that I lost most of when I opened the tube.  That is also going crazy.  So I have a 100 ml bottled yeast starter and a 2 litre WL410 starter for tomorrows brew day.  I hate to do it but I think the bottled yeast will lose this one.  I just bottled some IPA and am going to try to wash the yeast so will probably ump the bottled yeast.  It was still a good learning experience and will definitley try again at some point.  I read the Seirra Nevada Pale Ale is bottle conditioned so may try it with that style.  Thanks for the help.