New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association
Uncategorized Boards => General => Topic started by: Dave Savoie on January 27, 2011, 01:59:49 PM
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I just received this today
Hello Mr. Savoie,
I am interested in meeting with you to discuss the issues you raise regarding home brew and the Liquor Control Act. Please respond to this e-message with contact number(s), so that we can set a meeting date. Thank you,
Mike Johnston
Mike Johnston
Executive Director/Directeur général
Public Safety / Compliance & Enforcement
Sécurité publique/Contrôle de la conformité
et application de la loi
364 Argyle St. P.O Box 6000
Fredericton, NB, E3B 5H1
' Tel: (506) 453-2038
7Fax: (506) 453-3044
. mike.johnston@gnb.ca
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Kyle and Thomas I would like you to attend this meeting with me as you are well spoken and educated :P the meeting
Is either 10AM on Feb 9th or 10th depending which works best for you.
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I will join you, and I can do either of the meeting times.
We should show up slightly early, well dressed, and with some sort of brief document to give him outlining our point. We should make our case with a prepared statement, probably 5 to 10 minutes.
I'm thinking:
Sum up why we want this
mention most other provinces already do this
mention local benefits of competitions
this way we will be able to support local brew supply shops, instead of importing commercial craft brew from Quebec or the US to take to events.
Good job Dave.
E.D. level is great, he has real power to enact change.
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we should make it clear that any transported beer will be sealed with cork, cap, or otherwise.
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yes same rules apply to home brew as purchased beer
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Kyle do you think you can dig up any marketing info on craft beer in canada or even just the atlantic provinces such as revenue generated by competitions such as the ones they hold in Halifax
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I'll see what I can find.
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Ok the meeting is confirmed for WED 9th of Feb 10 AM 364 Argyle St
I think we should throw out there also that If you are a registered Craft brew club maybe have like a $100 yearly fee to be registered with the province we could obtain a special license so that when we do a teach a friend to brew day or hold a craft brew event we could hold tastings or something along those lines. My thought are ask for more than we want and maybe what we want could be what they settle for.
his reply
Sounds fine. Can you come here? I am at 364 Argyle St. I will likely have Darlene Harnish with me. She is the Director of Licensing and is exceptionally knowledgeable re the Act.
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I wouldn't start talking about licensing if I were you -- don't give them those kinds of ideas or we might have to apply for a "home-brewing permit" on a personal basis :P
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I doubt that would happen but to be able to hold tastings otherwise people will always have the misconception that homebrew is bad In some states you can apply for a form of special permit to allow for tastings I geuss that type of thing VS registered with the GOVT is probably the best way to go about it
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I doubt that would happen but to be able to hold tastings otherwise people will always have the misconception that homebrew is bad In some states you can apply for a form of special permit to allow for tastings I geuss that type of thing VS registered with the GOVT is probably the best way to go about it
So, when you're talking about holding tastings, you're meaning to the public (outside the FCBA), with homebrew? If so, that seems like big potatoes (is that a saying?).
Maybe we should be thinking baby-steps, here.
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What I mean is lets say we hold a Demonstration on how to make great beer at say the the Frex
we show them how to brew a stout unless they actually taste it how will they know how good it is
more to raise the awareness that you can make great beer at home. not glasses of beer but a mouth full type of thing
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Sometimes the only way to make progress is sheer audacity backed with pragmatism... other times small incremental change.
I think the major issue here is that you DO NOT want to risk bumping up against the profits of NBLC. If you can pitch this as being complementary to NBLC, then I reckon you're golden. "improving the image of the art and science of local craft brewing", or something like that.
I get the feeling it might be worth getting Picaroons in on this one. Didn't someone say they knew a guy?
The rules are (supposedly) put in place to ensure the quality of the product being produced for public consumption. I suspect you could make some argument here wrt ABV -- "dangerous" liquor is generally anything involving a still. Perhaps a cap on ABV might suffice to allay those fears... which I'm pretty sure will already be a part of the law for homebrewing, anyway. That plus the fact that no pathogens may grow in beer (citation needed), really makes the consumption of another's homebrew safer than crossing the street.
HOWEVER -- anything public is open to all kinds of restrictions -- you would effectively be getting a temporary version of the liquor license that bars etc have. This is an unholy mess of liability, procedure, and who knows what else (I repeat again that my grasp of legalese is tenuous at best).
Your idea regarding small-portions could be enough to counteract that, mind. We would still be in a whole world of liability, which is generally speaking something to avoid in any situation where possible :P
I think that right now, just gunning for the right to transport + gift a certain quantity of home-brewed liquor, below a certain ABV, AS AN INDIVIDUAL, would be the best course of action.
On a side note -- Noble Grape held some public tastings with that Tim Vandergrift wine-guy, for which you had to pay for the ticket. How they achieved that legally would be worth investigating before wading in demanding the right to allow public anything. I suspect there is already a licensing route, and I suspect it's a lot more than $100...
Enough havering for now.
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I agree with what Richard is saying (I DID read it quick, but I got the gist!). I admire Dave's idea, but maybe we should be taking, as I mentioned before, baby-steps. Allowing the transport of homebrew for meetings is a good place to start.
Gradual recruitment over time will likely occur... nothing needs to be rushed. Using the yearly fees to benefit the club and its members (by education, supplies, bulk ordering, etc.) is definitely a must.
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One of the local guys who at this time is attending law school at UNB, worked at a LHBS and did a couple of AG demos at the shop.
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I'm pretty sure a demonstration would be legal... I suspect you'd have to pretend to pitch the yeast rather than actually do so. There's no booze without yeast.
The issue is more with the "demonstration" of the end-result.
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we could just ask the licensing lady that would be at the meeting if something like this is even possible because if we don't bring something like this up now we may never get a chance to again and the worst thing they can so is hell no It took me over a year with more than 200 emails to all MLA's in the province to even get to this point. because really the change in the law to allow us to transport the beer is small and it doesn't help to adjust the image of home brew at all that was kind of my goal to begin with I want to be able to show people the art of craft brewing change peoples minds of what craft beer really is a few of my friends here at work have tasted just one mouthful of a beer I brewed at work and now when they go to the beer store they don't always go for bud anymore they pick up singles of something they have never tried that to me is a win so if we are able to provide a sample of a recipe that we are brewing at a demonstration and the people say wow that is really good we just opened their eyes
they have those huge craft brew events in Halifax where the public is allowed to sample all the craft brews we basically brew the same way as the microbreweries but on a much smaller scale and as it stands temp liquor licenses are available for weddings things of that nature...... but again I may be dreaming to big
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I agree with you - I think getting more people into craft beer should really be the target (for the most part) of a homebrew club. And I don't think there's any harm in dreaming big, at all.
I just think that maybe things need to be straightened out with this club a little more first, don't you agree? Right now there's not a lot of members, let alone paying members (from what I understand from some of the forum posts), so of course everything is a little haphazard.
I guess I'm just saying that before anything regarding the outside-FCBA world is seriously considered, maybe we need to clarify exactly what we want to accomplish among the members here, and how it benefits to BECOME a member of the FCBA.
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Aye; need to sort out the by-laws and have some kind of Annual General Meeting. The focus and direction is something that needs to be determined via democracy, if the association is to have any value at all.
By brewers, for brewers.
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I am pretty sure public brew demonstrations are fine. The guys at the Picaroons brewtique told me that they will start brewing authentic english ales in February, and it will be an open demonstration of the process, free for the public to attend. At this time I can't confirm that I will be albe to make it to the meeting next week. However, if there is nothing important happening in the lab I may be able to sneek out for an hour to attend.
When I think of the laws we are trying to change here, I feel it is important to understand where they came from. The majority of liquor laws still in place are a hold over from the prohibition era. These laws were often enacted by hard liner christians who though it was ungodly to consume alcohol, and that beer was the drink of the devil. However, before prohibition people had enough common sense to realize beer is something to be enjoyed, and even further that it was considered a godly drink (IE, monks calling the yeast "god is good" when pitching it). With that in mind, I consider most of todays liquor laws to be horribly antiquated, and no longer reflect the opinions of the times. Furthermore, they reflect the narrow minded ideals of christian extremists who used cult like techniques to sway the minds of the public. As a biologist, I find this to be one more addition to the long list of examples of why the "god delusion" is more harmful then helpful.
Sorry for the long rant, and I dont mean to offend anyones religious views on here, but this is the view I personally hold on the subject and I feel quite strongly about it.
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I think there are several good ideas/visions being discussed here, but I'd have to fall on the "lets not get ahead of ourselves" side. We should have our house in order before we get out in the public pawning our wares and pushing for legislation changes.
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I Agree going to focus on just being able to Gift and transport............
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I Agree going to focus on just being able to Gift and transport............
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we change what we're looking for here. The ideas are fine,... but rather that we don't stick our necks out until we're adequately prepared. Getting a shot to present your case for changes in front of this director probably isn't an opportunity that is going to happen on a whim every time we'd like to raise some topics. Going in on short notice leaves little lead time to present a well constructed case.
Going in you're going to want to be armed well... things like:
- Know the existing legislation and interpretations of of it
- Find/bring existing examples of legislations from other jurisdictions across Canada or US that enable the types of changes we're thinking of
- Have drafts/examples of how you would have the legislation updated/worded
- Be your own devil's advocate, have a list of pros/cons/concerns/issues for anything you propose. Poke holes in your proposals before someone else does.
- Have a prepared list of questions you'll want to know. IE: how does the process proceed, potential time frames, who are the points of contact, etc..
- Prepare a clear concise document or presentation of your case/ideas that you can walk through and leave with them
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Yes all of this is great Howah Im hoping to sit down with Kyle and work up a game plan
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Maybe we should be thinking baby-steps, here.
I think this is a good way to go about it. Now, Dave, you are the one who got the access, so you are the lead on this, but I think if we get too bogged down with possibilities and the big picture that the very specific point -- transportation; will be lost in the haze.
I think we should present our wishes for the transportation issue as the central one, but then we could go into other cool stuff that could evolve from the relaxing of the transportation rule.
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Great stuff Hawoh,
Perhaps our "suggested wording" should be that of the existing legislation in another province: instant, proven credibility
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I think we need to ensure that the transportation issue is resolved first and as far as events we can hold them on a private property and everything should be fine. !!!!
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Lobbying 101 (topic adaptation needed):
http://ontariospca.ca/1-10tipslobby.shtml (http://ontariospca.ca/1-10tipslobby.shtml)
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Alberta - Section 83 of the Gaming and Liquor Act
Posted by David Savoie on February 18, 2010 at 6:55 PM Comments comments (0)
Mr. Savoie, your email inquiry has been forwarded to me for a reply.
Section 83 of the Gaming and Liquor Act (Alberta) states “a common carrier or other person may, in accordance with this Act, transport liquor from a place where liquor is lawfully located to another place where liquor may be lawfully located.” Homemade liquor may be lawfully located in a residence, so therefore in Alberta, there is no problem with home brewers transporting their product to another residence. The Gaming and Liquor Act may be accessed at the following link:
http://aglc.ca/pdf/legislation/GLA_Act.pdf (http://aglc.ca/pdf/legislation/GLA_Act.pdf)
These products however, cannot be transported to a sampling/competition as homemade liquor cannot be served at any licensed function. This is an Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission (AGLC) policy that is located in Section 10.1.3 of the Licensee Handbook. A link to this handbook is as followssad
http://aglc.ca/pdf/handbooks/liquor_lic ... ndbook.pdf (http://aglc.ca/pdf/handbooks/liquor_licensee_handbook.pdf)
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The Liquor Control Act and Regulations of Manitoba
Posted by David Savoie on February 19, 2010 at 4:06 PM Comments comments (0)
From: Jim Haslund [mailto:JHaslund@mlcc.mb.ca]
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:59 AM
To: David Savoie
Cc: Contact
Subject: RE: Liquor Act and Regulations
You cannot distil liquor in the province of Manitoba. This is under the Custom and Excise act of Canada. You can gain access to this act on line. In Manitoba you can ferment and brew for personal consumption and transport the product from one residence to another. This product cannot be in any licensed premises permit function or public area. You can access this information on line under The Liquor Control Act and Regulations.
Jim Haslund
Supervisor Inspection Services
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Nova Scotia Liquor Control Act
Posted by David Savoie on February 19, 2010 at 5:17 PM Comments comments (0)
Transportation of liquor
Gift 55 A person may make or receive a bona fide gift of liquor if
(a) the donor is in lawful possession of the liquor;
(b) the gift is not for the promotion of abrand of liquor unless such a gift for promotional purposes is made inaccordance with methods and procedures authorized by this Act;
(c) the donee is not a person who is prohibited from possessing or consuming liquor under this Act; and
(d) it does not exceed the quantity determined by the regulations. R.S., c. 260, s. 55.
(4) Subject to this Act and the regulations, whether or not the package or vessel containing liquor has been opened or the seal on the package or vessel is broken, a person who is permitted by law to possess and consume liquor within the Province and who for a lawful purpose
(a) purchased the liquor lawfully within the Province;
(b) brought the liquor, not exceeding a quantity determined by the regulations, lawfully into the Province; or
(c) received the liquor as a bona fide gift,
may carry or convey that liquor to anyplace in which the person is permitted to possess, have or consume the liquor or from that place to another place in which the person ispermitted to possess, have or consume the liquor if he does not openthe package or vessel or consume the liquor while carrying or conveying it.
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The BC Liquor Control and Licensing Act says about home-brew
Posted by David Savoie on February 24, 2010 at 4:08 PM Comments comments (0)
The BC Liquor Control and Licensing Act says about home-brew:
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(1) A person must not manufacture liquor in British Columbia except in accordance with this Act and the regulations.
(2) This section does not apply to a person producing or manufacturing wine, beer or cider
(a) in a residence, or
(b) in an establishment licensed under section 12.1 [UBrew and UVin companies] for the person's own consumption or consumption at no charge by other persons.
A person must not consume liquor in a public place but the Act does not mention anything about carrying closed liquor from one place to another. So, a person could take their home made liquor to a friend’s place to share together.
Ministry of Housing and Social Development
Liquor Control and Licensing
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Saskatchewan's Alcohol and Gaming Regulation Act
Posted by David Savoie on February 25, 2010 at 11:16 AM Comments comments (0)
Section 109 of Saskatchewan's Alcohol and Gaming Regulation Act, 1997 addresses the issue of beverage alcohol in vehicles and states:
Vehicles
109(1) Subject to subsection (2), no person by himself or herself, his or her employee or agent shall have or keep or consume or give beverage alcohol in a vehicle.
(2) Subsection (1) does not render it unlawful:
(a) to have beverage alcohol in a vehicle for the purpose of transporting the
beverage alcohol from the place at which it was lawfully obtained to a place
where it may be lawfully had, kept or consumed or from that place to another
place where it may be lawfully had, kept or consumed; or
(b) to have, keep, consume or give beverage alcohol in a vehicle for which the
authority has issued a special use permit.
(3) Clause (2)(a) does not apply respecting beverage alcohol being transported in a vehicle used for carrying passengers for hire or gain unless the beverage alcohol is in the possession of a person who is a bona fide passenger in the vehicle.
(4) A person who contravenes this section is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine of not more than $2,000, imprisonment for a term of two months or both.
In Saskatchewan's legislation homemade beverage alcohol is considered beverage alcohol for the purposes of the act and this section would allow an individual to transport beverage alcohol from one place where it may be legally consumed to another.
In Saskatchewan, there is no requirement that individuals obtain a permit to serve and consume beverage alcohol in a private place. The interpretation of a private place is contained in section 106 of the Alcohol and Gaming Regulation Act, 1997.
For more information about Saskatchewan’s legislation go to: http://www.slga.gov.sk.ca/x3650.xml (http://www.slga.gov.sk.ca/x3650.xml)
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Thomas: I'm pretty sure the Anti-Saloon league had something to do with it too; arguably prohibition (whilst supported and partially enabled by christian-motivated politics) was really brought about by giving women the vote. Oops :P
Also we should shy away from any discussion of religion in here... I rather doubt a mash-up of Dawkins and a history lesson (however truthful) will have any use in the case versus objective comparison to other provincial law.
Dave: A lot of what you're digging up here appears to be related more to distillation (which I expect will remain illegal due to the potential for blinding yourself if you're a dumbass).
Can you find specific instances of other provinces allowing gifting of homebrew, or licencing a function wherein homebrew may be consumed on-site?
I'd look more but I'm ass-deep in work right now :-/
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All of these posted are directly related to homebrew Ive already confirmed this any info i posted was directly from that provinces GOVT I emailed them they emailed me back with the info
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The BC Liquor Control and Licensing Act says about home-brew:
...
(2) This section does not apply to a person producing or manufacturing wine, beer or cider
Confused me. See my previous point about not being able to understand legalese :P
You seem to have amassed a rather large pile of evidence that transportation is legal in other provinces... so that's that one supported :)
Also:
viewtopic.php?p=493#p493 (http://craftbrewing.ca/viewtopic.php?p=493#p493) (Nova Scotia Liquor Control Act)
would seem to be our gateway to gifting, unless there's some other law specifically prohibiting it...
Well done :)
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I used to have this info for every province but when changing PC at work some got lost
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Is this legislation not available online, i.e. without email? Could make a page in the wiki devoted to the per-province status on transport, (public) competitions, and gifting.
Although the laymans interpretation given in the emails is pretty damn valuable, given how obtuse the law is in parts. We should definitely keep this stuff safe somewhere...
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Based on our meeting today we have a supporter in Mr Mike Johnston he seems very interested in craft brewing and appreciates good beer and he also brought up the competition thing such as a license for competitions as many of the other provinces have legislation regarding this so the fight has progressed a bit further and with time and effort I think we can have this law adjusted so our craft can flourish !!!
Cheers
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Nice one. Do we have anything in writing, as to the specifics (if any) of what happens next?
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next step is to provide him with a very detailed description of what we would like but kyle will elaborate a bit more of what he wants from us.
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sorry to dig up old threads guys, but I'm very curious....What was the final outcome of the meeting?
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not sure i thought Kyle was going to give the guy more info not sure after that
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then again it was a long time ago
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So the meeting never happened Dave?
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The meeting did happen and the guy was very supportive of our cause Ill look back into this
Kyle do you still have that guys contact info ?
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I gave him a summary of our goals, cost / benefits to the community, and suggested legislative wording from other provinces. There was also a brief discussion on the sheet about business opportunities, tourism, and such with competitions. I don't have access to that file at the moment, but I gave Mike Johnstone (E.D. Public Safety) a couple copies of it, as well as one to Darleen Harnish (IIRC director of Liquor Control)
The root problem is that it is in the Act (Section 36 in case you are interested) rather than the Regulation, so any changes would have to be voted on in a bill in the provincial legistature. The good news is that the business community in NB arealdy disliked other aspects of the NB liquor control act, so we were hoping to ride their coat-tails to get our voice in. No changes yet for us I don't think:
NB Liquor Control Act
http://www.gnb.ca/0062/acts/acts/l-10.htm (http://www.gnb.ca/0062/acts/acts/l-10.htm)
"36A person not prohibited from having possession of liquor may have in the person’s residence a maximum total of fifty gallons of wine, wine and beer or beer made by the person in the person’s residence, and a person who is not prohibited from consuming liquor may consume that wine or beer in that residence.
1971, c.43, s.5; 1974, c.26(Supp.), s.3; 1992, c.90, s.30."
The current legal interpretation of the above quote is that home brew is fine, up to 50- gallons AT ONCE, but it is not to leave the home or apartment where it was brewed. Public safety told us that this law is not enforced, but because it is in the Act it is very difficult to modernize.
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Thanks for the update guys.
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I just called and left messeges for Mike Johnstone (E.D. Public Safety & Darleen Harnish (IIRC director of Liquor Control)
So hopefully in the next few days Ill have a better update for everyone !!!