New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association
Brewing => Equipment => Topic started by: Chris Craig on November 26, 2012, 11:30:50 PM
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Interesting...
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php (http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php)
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Very interesting.
A couple of points that came to mind:
-that thing is 50' of 1/2 copper...of course it's going to cool things down super fast. I'm sure a counterflow chiller with the same specs will chill things down just as fast.
-I chill and transfer 5GAL every 5 minutes with my CFC...I think that's reasonable. That immersion chiller would probably cool 15GAL down in the same time, but then you have to transfer it to fermenters.
-I really like the idea of not transferring cold break into the fermenter, and the immersion does that....but so does my counterflow along with the bottom shape of my kettle and the filter I use. It's been a long time (before my CFC and current kettle) since I've seen any cold break in my fermenters...nothing but yeast cake.
Something the immersion does do over the CFC...allows you to cool wort in the kettle fast, leaving the cold break at the bottom and allowing you to siphone clean beer off the top..... ah, I think that's why I made a CFC...I hate siphoning...
At the end of the day, everyone has their preference.
That is a really good article though. Great design. I would have jumped on that if I hadn't have built a CFC.
BTW, I think JohnQ has plans up his sleave for a 50' CFC using 1" pex and 1/2" copper...lets see how that puppy performs!
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Before I got my plate chiller, I had a similar setup—a 25' ?" immersion chiller, and a piece of copper similar to this (http://morebeer.com/view_product/9146/102205/Wort_Chiller_Recirculation_Package_-_Option_One) that I recirculated through with a greatbreweh pump to create a whirlpool. It ended up shaving 10+ minutes off my chilling time for a 5.5 gallon batch.
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I'm doing this. Ther is one main reason: Hops.
An immersion chiller with a whirlpool arm can bring down the whole batch very quickly. Much quicker than a CFC can. That means late addition hops serve their intended purpose. It took me a long time to realize this, but once I did I couldn't get it out of my head.
Using a pump with the whirlpool arm should allow me to get below 100F in 3 or 4 minutes. The rest of the drop should be a bit longer, but I anticipate only a few extra minutes added to brew day by using this technique.
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Seems to me the same effect could be had by whirlpooling with a CFC for the first few minutes...I can output 50-60 degree wort from the CFC, colder if I wanted to prechill the cooling water...every gallon of 60 degree wort going back in to the kettle via the whirlpool would create 2 couple of gallons of 120ish, which would so by the time half the kettle is recirculated the temp would be down around 120, probably below 100 given the constant sliding scale you'd be dealing with, as the kettle cools coming out colder still at the cfc.
Might be worth building the recirculate arm to see how it would work.
I've done a little recirculating while cooling a couple of times, but only cowboy style with the hose run back in to the kettle.
Reading the article more closely, he does mention using a CFC / whirlpool combo but claims you can't hit exact temps with a cfc...I beg to differ. If you control your water output flow rate, as well as your wort input flow rate, you can nail any temp you want, right down to your water input temp. If you need a lower than source water final temp, then you can do as he suggests and pre-chill your cooling water with ice or even a combo of ice and rock salt. You dotn't even need a pump for your cooling water that has been pre-chilled if you have a keg or two to spare.
Regardless, what he's doing clearly does work, I just think that his claims about CFC's or Plate Chillers is off base.
After the MO is over, I'll look at a little build and demonstrate to see if I'm right.
JQ
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Well, I'm brewing this afternoon. I'll give it a try and see how long it takes to drop the temperature down below 120F or so.
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Well, I'm brewing this afternoon. I'll give it a try and see how long it takes to drop the temperature down below 120F or so.
That's great, I'll be interested to hear with your CFC and your well water temp if it works as well.
I'm betting it does. The testimonials at the bottom article start off with a guy saying wow about getting 1 gpm down to 65F... that's dead easy with our well water/cfc temps without a Recirculation, will be really interesting to see it with.
JQ
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I had thought about this before, and I'm also a little skeptical about the claims - given he gives only a hypothesis and no data to back it up. A comparison would be excellent, if someone has the time/resources:
Water usage, speed of cooling, cold break isolation (in-kettle) - would be my main three interests.
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I have that type of setup and it's about 4 minutes to get to 140F and about 15 minutes to get to 75F.
At the 4 min mark I went through about 6-7 gals of water i suppose. Getting it below 140F is my big concern. That water gets re-used.
At the 15 min mark it's about another 18-20 gals. Its much quicker than before for my setup.
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After about 7 minutes recirculating through the CFC, the temp dropped to 180.i gave up and just ran the wort as usual. This is way too slow. I think the immersion while recirculating is the more efficient way.
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After about 7 minutes recirculating through the CFC, the temp dropped to 180.i gave up and just ran the wort as usual. This is way too slow. I think the immersion while recirculating is the more efficient way.
Wow, that's really interesting.
I'm very surprised, any idea what temp the wort was exiting the CFC at?
JQ
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Hmm... really seems like some calculus would provide a concrete model here, and if I weren't mildly tipsy on a Sunday afternoon I'd do the math. Maybe later...
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Probably around mid 70s. My ground water is low 50s.
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The flowrates would be key for proper heat transfer.
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A full fledged experiment is called for...
RB, you've got to get on the math, mine is too simple nowadays, i adjust the flow rate of both my wort input and cooling coil output to hit the temps I want, but I'm :shock: 'd that it was only down 30 degrees in 7 mins...
CC, how long did it usually take with your CFC to cool 10 gallons?
JQ
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It usually takes about 15 minutes. I have to restrict the wort output quite a bit to hit temperatures. I think water pressure is a big obstacle for me, so exactly what chrismcull said. Maybe I need to increase the pressure in my pressure tank.
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I can tell you I go through a LOT of water chilling 15-20GAL down to 21C through my cfc...I hate my water bill...
And I got my power bill after running the new big fridge I got from JohnQ....and I hate my power bill too...
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I noticed the came for my cfc, takes more than 5 min of recirc to get dow below even 170. I think it because of my flow rate though. My cfc is 3/8ths and my chugger just cant force the flow fast enough even with 70 ish wort coming out. I think a 1/2" cfc might work a lot better.
+1 to what john was saying about temp control. Since I installed a therm probe on the end of my cfc its really not hard to adjust.
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I noticed the came for my cfc, takes more than 5 min of recirc to get dow below even 170. I think it because of my flow rate though. My cfc is 3/8ths and my chugger just cant force the flow fast enough even with 70 ish wort coming out. I think a 1/2" cfc might work a lot better.
+1 to what john was saying about temp control. Since I installed a therm probe on the end of my cfc its really not hard to adjust.
I'm going to make a point of timing everything when I run the CFC from now on, the new 1/2" copper inside of the 1" pex might be the trick.
JQ
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Here are some nice plans for this. It's very close to how I'm going to build mine.
http://www.wortomatic.com/php/articles.php?ID=11 (http://www.wortomatic.com/php/articles.php?ID=11)
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Built this this afternoon. I haven't had time to do a proper test yet, but I was able to bring 160F water down to 90F quite quickly. I'll do a proper test tomorrow some time and take a video of it to show how quickly it works.
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Here's the test I did with my new immersion chiller with whirlpool arm. I've very pleased with the results. I chilled from 212ºF to 120ºF in 3:20, and to 70ºF in just over 13 minutes.
[youtube:23gor4i5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E_6wEn4yWc[/youtube:23gor4i5]
(http://imageshack.us/a/img688/3585/img20130407135022.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img542/8113/img20130407135010.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img560/1964/img20130407135004.jpg)
I'm getting better at soldering :)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img94/837/img20130407134954.jpg)
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Very nice. Do you think it matters if the wort return is at the top or the bottom?
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I don't think so. I have the water-in going straight to the bottom of the kettle where the whirlpool return is.
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Very nice job - my CFC takes about the same time for the volume you're talking about, though.
I'd say a major benefit of this is not having wort /inside/ the chiller - which is fine with a plate chiller, but in a CFC I'm always a little more concerned about sanitation.
I'm still not sure there's a clear winner re: plate/cfc/immersion, but clearly immersion works best with a whirlpool.
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Your CFC chills your entire batch below 120F in 3 minutes? 10Gallons?
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5.5 gallons in 10 minutes down to whatever temperature the tap-water is at... I'm guessing now that you meant 13 minutes from 212, so no, that is a little faster :)
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Nice job Chris! That's exactly what I plan to do!
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Here's the test I did with my new immersion chiller with whirlpool arm. I've very pleased with the results. I chilled from 212ºF to 120ºF in 3:20, and to 70ºF in just over 13 minutes.
10 gallons? that's quick.
JQ
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Did you use the ice method or just well water?
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5.5 gallons in 10 minutes down to whatever temperature the tap-water is at... I'm guessing now that you meant 13 minutes from 212, so no, that is a little faster :)
I really should do a test for a 5 gallon batch too. I'm not sure if it would be too much quicker. Some of the chiller would be exposed at that volume.
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Did you use the ice method or just well water?
Just well water. No pre-chiller. I think that with my ground water being in the low 40s, a pre-chiller wouldn't make too much difference. I'm not concerned with saving a couple minutes at the end of the chilling.
Again, my main goal was to get below 120F as quick as possible. 3:20 is damned fast.
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Nice job Chris! That's exactly what I plan to do!
Let me know if you need some help Roger. I'd be glad to lend a hand.
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I'm re-running my Glacier pale ale next weekend using this chiller. It'll be interesting to see the difference in the aroma.
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Actually I forgot the main benefit of doing it this way : cold break in the Kettle.
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That is really good... I wonder though if the cold water was stratifying at the bottom? Next time you do the test, could you take a temp reading from the top of the liquid to confirm?
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That's a good point Kyle. I didn't think about that. Perhaps I should shorten the return arm so that it's higher up in the kettle. Right now, the pick up and return are at the same height in the kettle.
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Actually I forgot the main benefit of doing it this way : cold break in the Kettle.
I honestly don't care about break material in my fermentor, but it would be nice to keep the hops out.
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You have better (harder) water for clarity than I do :)
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I honestly don't care about break material in my fermentor, but it would be nice to keep the hops out.
You having issues with hop debris getting in your fermenter?
I have setup similar to yours but I don't have any issues with hops in the fermenter.
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I haven't tried this yet. I've been using a CFC, and I do get hops in the fermentor with that because I don't filter.
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I don't filter
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Perhaps it's the keggle I was using as a kettle. My pick up tube went straight down to the center of the bowl.
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Hey guys I built this tonight. I was about to build it the same as yours Chris but thought I'd try something different they call it a ribcage immersion chiller ( http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-int ... er-106415/ (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-interwoven-rib-cage-immersion-chiller-106415/) ) I added a whirlpool arm so we'll see! I figured there would be more space between the coils and no soldering. Its 1/2" copper coiled in opposite directions then interwoven making it look like a ribcage. Along with a whirlpool arm it should cool quite quickly. When I get a bigger pot I can open up the coils a bit but for now it fits nicely.
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beautiful build! Looks great!
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Yes very nice shiny copper is always pretty!
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Very nice!
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That looks awesome, Im liking the idea of these whirlpool immersion chillers.... might have to look into something like this
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I keep juggling ideas around about how to efficiently cool down wort without going through a ton of water. I currently use a CFC which works great but like tinkering and making things more efficient.
With a few new additions to the brewery, I've decided to take a 2 phase approach to cooling wort. First cooling to create cold break, and the second to cool to pitching temp.
I'm installing a 50' SS coil inside my HLT, hard plumbed to 2 ball valves on the outside of the kettle. Same idea as the electric brewery's HLT. It's a big HERMS coil, but I'm going to fill the HLT with cold water at the end of the boil and pump boiling wort through the herms coil to cool it down and create the cold break. (I will be recirculating the cold kettle water from bottom to top)
So this first step is basically an inversed whirlpool immersion chiller which I forsee cooling the wort down below 100F quite quickly.
I'm going to test the above in the coming couple of weeks with water to get solid temps and times.
Thought I'd post this here, as it's immersion related.
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Interesting idea. So, you fill the HLT with cold tap water, and recirculate the wort through it and back into the kettle?
If you have roughly the same volume in both kettles, then I'd say you could probably cool the wort to about 150-160F this way quickly. To get down to 120F or so will likely take you considerably longer. What is your target temp for this first phase of cooling?
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Interesting idea. So, you fill the HLT with cold tap water, and recirculate the wort through it and back into the kettle?
If you have roughly the same volume in both kettles, then I'd say you could probably cool the wort to about 150-160F this way quickly. To get down to 120F or so will likely take you considerably longer. What is your target temp for this first phase of cooling?
DUH. 100F as per your post. I'm skeptical, but it's an interesting idea. I think you're going to need a way to keep the HLT water cold. Ice.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but lets say I have 20GAL @ 200F and 20GAL @ 50F, they should both finally equal out @ 125F each correct? The first 20-30F heat transfer should be quite quick, but then drop off and take some time to complete the rest, which I'll confirm with a test.
Yeah, I could either throw ice in the HLT, or instead of recirculating the water out the ball valve and back in the top, I could connect the ball valve to the drain and fresh cold water in through the top....
Anyway, something to try. if it doesn't work that great, then I'll discard the idea...but I got a feeling it will work pretty good. The heat transfer is going to be pretty good through a 50' coil.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but lets say I have 20GAL @ 200F and 20GAL @ 50F, they should both finally equal out @ 125F each correct? The first 20-30F heat transfer should be quite quick, but then drop off and take some time to complete the rest, which I'll confirm with a test.
Yeah, I could either throw ice in the HLT, or instead of recirculating the water out the ball valve and back in the top, I could connect the ball valve to the drain and fresh cold water in through the top....
Anyway, something to try. if it doesn't work that great, then I'll discard the idea...but I got a feeling it will work pretty good. The heat transfer is going to be pretty good through a 50' coil.
Dump until wort is down to 150, then divert back to kettle. You should average to 100 and end up with a preheat in the HLT for cleaning water.
JQ
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Dump until wort is down to 150, then divert back to kettle. You should average to 100 and end up with a preheat in the HLT for cleaning water.
JQ
Or better yet, Dump to a capture container until 150, which should give you some very hot water in the capture container which can be used as preheated cleaning water, then divert to HLT for rinse water.
JQ
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That's kind of what I figured John.
Anyways, I'll test and post numbers in the next couple of weeks.
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or get real crazy and recirculate through the HERMS AND CFC, then back into the kettle until kettle temp is under 100F. I bet that wouldn't take very long.
I'll start with the HERMS and escalate from there if it's not good enough.
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That's a good idea John. I hadn't thought of dumping the used hot water for fresh tap water. That would definitely help with the speed of chilling.
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I finally put this to use on the weekend. I made 10 gallons of my pale ale, so I had a full kettle to try it on. Kyle was right. There was some stratification. The temperature at the top of the kettle was about 10 degrees higher than near the bottom, but that didn't make much difference. It only took another minute before even the top was below 120F.
Having the whirlpool arm at the bottom of the kettle was a problem for a different reason. Because the return was so close to the pickup, I never did get a whirlpool in the kettle. Either that, or the greatbreweh.com pump that I have is just not powerful enough to create the whirlpool. So, what I'm going to do is shorten the return arm so that it returns just under the surface of a 5 gallon batch of wort (about half way up).
I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to see what impact this design has had on the hop profile. I may have a sample at the AGM.
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Great info Chris. Keep us posted!
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Having the whirlpool arm at the bottom of the kettle was a problem for a different reason. Because the return was so close to the pickup, I never did get a whirlpool in the kettle. Either that, or the greatbreweh.com pump that I have is just not powerful enough to create the whirlpool. So, what I'm going to do is shorten the return arm so that it returns just under the surface of a 5 gallon batch of wort (about half way up).
I found the same when I was using my greatbreweh pump and whirlpool IC. When the return was low in the kettle, the pump didn't have enough pressure output to create the whirlpool. I raised the return to about 1" below the surface and got a great, strong whirlpool.
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Awesome Jeff! Did you keep the return arm inside the chiller, or near the kettle wall?
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Awesome Jeff! Did you keep the return arm inside the chiller, or near the kettle wall?
Near the kettle wall. It was actually separate from my chiller. I just clamped it to the side of the kettle.
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That's my thought as well.