New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association
Brewing => Equipment => Topic started by: sdixon on November 06, 2012, 08:42:25 PM
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Hey guys, looking at building (mostly buying actually) a 1bbl system for pilot batches. Here is a list... suggestions welcome. I am considering a BCS 462 in place of the EBC III controller. T Highgreavitybrew.com site "Build Your Own Brewery" selection doesn't seem to offer pumps? Or am I missing something? If not, are March pumps the way to go, or would those small pumps some of you were looking at be ok for a 1bbl system?
Electric Brewery Controllers: EBC III with Infinite Power Control - $799.00
Electric Brewery Controllers: HERMS Package - $384.95
EBC Options: (2) Additional Cord Length - 1' Increments (6' included) - $4.00
Hot Liquor Tank Options: Hot Liquor Tank - Blichmann BoilerMaker (30 Gallon) - $589.95
Hot Liquor Tank Options: Heat Exchanger for HLT - $57.95
Hot Liquor Tank Options: Heating Element - 5500W Stainless Steel Twist-Loc Plug w/ Weldless kit - $99.00
Mash Tun Options: Mash Tun - Blichmann BoilerMaker (30 Gallon) with Mash Screen - $738.90
Mash Tun Options: Autosparge - $49.99
Mash Tun Options: Thermowell for Temperature Probe Installed with Weldless Kit - $49.95
Brew Kettle Options: Brew Kettle - Blichmann BoilerMaker (55 Gallon) - $771.95
Brew Kettle Options: Heating Element - 5500W Stainless Steel Twist-Loc Plug w/ Weldless kit - $99.00
Plate Chillers: Therminator Wort Chiller - $209.95
Plate Chillers: QuickConnector - 1/2" Barb (Set of 2) - $29.95
Product Subtotal: $3,884.54
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If you're looking at this kind of money, spend the extra $100 and change to get a March pump instead of one of these DC pumps. My DC pump works fine, but the fittings are a nightmare.
Also, to add to your list, you'll need silicone hoses and QDs to move the wort around.
Are you going to be using this in your house?
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If you're looking at this kind of money, spend the extra $100 and change to get a March pump instead of one of these DC pumps. My DC pump works fine, but the fittings are a nightmare
Yeah I have no experience with them, but if there are challenges, I see your point.
Also, to add to your list, you'll need silicone hoses and QDs to move the wort around.
Yes, and fermentation, and, and, and...
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Highgreavitybrew.com site "Build Your Own Brewery" selection doesn't seem to offer pumps? Or am I missing something?
The HERMS package they sell includes a March Pump, and I called and had a second one added.
You should probably test the one they sell first and see if there is a more spendy version of the March Pump that can push a little more wort.
JQ
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I'm assuming the heat exchanger is the HERMS coil? that's pretty cheap, but I would really strongly recommend building your own HERMS coil in your HLT. The highest quality build I've seen is using 50' of 1/2" stainless tubing, coiled into your HLT. the inputs and outputs are compression fitted to 2 dedicated ball valves. Very easy to clean, and indipendant of other fittings on your HLT.
Here is a link to the retrofit:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hot-l ... ank?page=5 (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hot-liquor-tank?page=5)
That's a great site by the way Steve. Might give you some ideas on how to setup your 1BBL system.
This is the site I'm using as a reference when building the bcs-462 controller.
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1 (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1)
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So almost $1200 in electronics for the ecb-3 and the herms controller?
the bcs would definitely be cheaper.
Maybe you, John, and I can come up with an arrangement on getting the controllers made sooner than later.
Going to try hard to come up for the meeting this saturday, for the day, and perhaps we can discuss further then.
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The HERMS coil is really the only disappointment with the HighGravity system for me.
Not a high enough flow rate to accurately control temps I think, and I'm not sure it it's a function of too small diameter coil, or the march pump, or both. I expect it's just the coil is too narrow, restricting the flow rate.
JQ
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The HERMS package also includes a march Pump in the cost. I agree with both Sr. and Jr. - I should Build my own HERMS system with SS (& larger dia.). Would probably also want to use silicone tubing instead of vinyl, for ease of use if nothing else.
And Fakr... yes I am interested in working with you and JQ on the controller if we can do it in a reasonable timeframe. It sounds pretty cool! Getting the high Gravity System will take 15+ days. In my experience that means 3 weeks. In that time I need to get basement ready (ventilation, electrical, plumbing and stand), which should be doable in 3 weeks. I may be more technical than the average Joe (not you Joe ;-) but I don't want to have the controller be too complicated. Would hate to not be able to brew because I could figure out how to make my controller talk to my system. :? Let's talk.
Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting this week... busy all day Saturday with my girls and overnight in SJ.
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ok, sounds good. We'll talk more soon.
My concern with building you a controller is that I'd hold you up from brewing by running into issues, or not being able to source all parts in a timely fashion...
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Upon Further review,
another idea that I've considered for my 55 gallon boil kettle, is a second element in the Boil Kettle, so you can have twice the power for the heat up.
JQ
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JQ - Are you suggesting I would need it? Is yours underpowered for as a kettle? I was planning to use the BK to have hot water on hand after mashing in, so I could pump that hot water over to the HLT in case I needed more in the HLT for HERMS.
Joe, let's talk... I'm probably not going to order until Sunday or Monday. I'm going through all my plans now... when I spend that $$ I want to ensure I'm making the best decision. I was thinking Stout Tanks and Kettles (their pricing is good too), but they take 3 - 4 months to build after you order.
Speaking of stout tanks and kettles, does anyone have any knowledge of Brewmation controls?
http://www.brewmation.com/3bbl.html
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Time=$$$
You could always add a second one later, but I've found that the time it takes to heat up the water can be long.
I think it's the one place the Electric falls down, it's cheaper, but can't provide the raw energy that gas can...fast.
So when the Time=$$$ formula kicks in, it might be worthwhile.
You could wait until you've done a few batches then decide and add a second if you think it's worhtwhile.
JQ
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keep your power requirements in mind guys. a 5500W element pulls a little over 20 amps, so having potentially 3 running at the same time would be over 60A. I think a typical dryer recepticle is 30A, and a stove recepticle is 40A...
If you're going for a potential 60A with 3 elements, there will be substantial powerwiringreaker upgrade cost.
just throwing that out there.
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If you're going for a potential 60A with 3 elements, there will be substantial powerwiringreaker upgrade cost.
True... I'm fortunate that my neighbor is an electrician who just volunteered to help... and he likes drinking my beer :-)
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Just checked out the brewmation controls. Looks like a solid option for converting a gas setup to electric.
Steve, check out the control system from electric brewery.
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel)
They have a real solid setup. You might want to look at their 50A back to back setup. I'd even recommend giving them a call.
They sell their control panels either plug n play, or as a kit, where assemply is required. They charge around $750 to assemble the panel for you.
The 50A back to back only comes as a kit at the moment, and is designed for brewers who are running back to back batches. it allows you to run a pair of 4500W elements (the kettle and HLT) at the same time.
So after reviewing the above, and my previous post, you should only run 2 x 4500W elements at the same time with a 50A circuit....not supposed to exceed 80% of a circuit's amperage.
Sooooo.....a person could instal dual 4500W elements in both the HLT and boil kettle, and only power 2 elements at a time....that would work out, but you'd have to manually unplug and plug elements in as you need them.
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the electric brewery website said they are expecting to have prebuilt 50A control panels available this fall.
If you got the kit, I'd definitely do the assembly for you. Your neighbour could too, but that might be asking to much from a non brewer....hehe!
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Damn... I'm struggling here. I see the argument for the 50A panel... it is going to save me 42 min. per brew day. But it is twice the cost (assuming I get a kit and Faqr helps me assemble it) compared to the EBC III. I like that the EBC III comes with infinite temperature control, particularly for the BK. I have burnt wort with too much heat before.
Based on the price for the pre-built 30A panel, it's a deal breaker, the 50A would be that much more. Either I get help to built it from a kit or it's an easy no go decision.
PS - Why do you suppose the - 50A Control Panel for 30+ gallons (KIT) - is $1775 and the - 50A Control Panel for back to back batches (KIT) - is $1575 ($200 less)?
Tough decision! Still have not decided.
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If you already have an agreement with Fakr for assemby, why not consider building a panel specifically to meet your needs? I built a single PID one with relatively few bells and whistles, using mainly parts from Auber for a fraction of the cost of the High Gravity panel. Also, I don't really see the need to go 50 amps; just set the timer to heat the strike water before you start brewing. On a 30 amp (10 Gauge SOOW) wire, you can easily have a pump and a 5500 watt element running.
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Joe - What was the name of the controller you are going to build again?
Were you thinking of building it to hadle 9000W / pot?
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The controller is a BCS-460 or 462.
http://wiki.embeddedcc.com/index.php?title=Main_Page (http://wiki.embeddedcc.com/index.php?title=Main_Page)
Above is a wiki link for the controller. The thing can do A LOT. it could be used to run your brewery from filling your HTL to fermentation.
You could even use one to automate your house...turn on and off lights, run your furnace, etc.
The controller can be built anyway you'd want it, but I think 9000-10000W would be a max. I don't see anyone having a 60A breaker in their houses specifically for an electric brewery! I don't know if you've seen a heavy gauge welding cable, but the diameter is pretty cose to an inch, and that's the size wiring you'd need from your breaker panel to your controller to handle that much amperage.
After thinking about the BCS controller plans, I would be very hard pressed to build one in your timeframe Steve. I just hit a big project at work that will consume a lot of my evenings and weekends from here to Christmas, and I'd really hate to delay your brewery. I'd really rather take my time building the first one, and could build something quicker, with a build template, after the first.
You might want to consider the EBC-3 or another affordable controller for the short-medium term. Use it for a while and figure out what's lacking. Then, if you still wanted to go with something like the BCS-460 or 462, I could build you one at that time. I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem selling it.
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I appreciate you being candid with me and I think that's good advice... start with the EBC 3 and upgrade later if necessary. Another thought I had was to just buy a second EBC 3 controller if I wanted to double the elements. I would still be at or below the cost of the Electric Brewery 50A panel.
Thanks for the ideas and discussion! :ugeek:
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no problem!
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I appreciate you being candid with me and I think that's good advice... start with the EBC 3 and upgrade later if necessary. Another thought I had was to just buy a second EBC 3 controller if I wanted to double the elements. I would still be at or below the cost of the Electric Brewery 50A panel.
Thanks for the ideas and discussion! :ugeek:
Or an EBC 2 as the second element controller.
JQ
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EBC 2 & 3 in conjunction would work very nicely. Maybe you can gey HG to put it all in one box too.
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I'd like to see this at some point, let me know if you are going to demo it in the future.
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I'd like to see this at some point, let me know if you are going to demo it in the future.
You are welcome to stop by anytime, but if you want to see it in operation, I can let you know next brewday. I am still working out small little details, but all is good.
I'll be around tomorrow if you want to stop by.
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Are you around on Sunday Steve?
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Sorry I missed this Chris. I haven't been on much lately (obviously).
478-3447