New Brunswick Craft Brewers Association
Brewing => Equipment => Topic started by: DandyMason on September 06, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
-
Hey guys, A few of the last things I need to pick up are...
Wort Chiller
Grain Mill
Brew Pot
For the wort chiller I have been looking at a 3/8 inch by 25 foot copper immersion chiller...
http://www.nybrewsupply.com/products/wo ... ersion.php (http://www.nybrewsupply.com/products/wort-chiller-copper-immersion.php)
... Is a 25 foot chiller long enough or should I go with 50 foot? I will be brewing 5 gallon batches. I e-mailed NY Brew Supply to find out about shipping and apparently shipping for the 25 foot chiller is $29 and the 50 foot is $36.
As for the grain mill I have really only looked into Hop Dawgs...
http://www.hopdawgs.ca/index.php/equipm ... rain-mill/ (http://www.hopdawgs.ca/index.php/equipment/barley-crusher-grain-mill-beer-kits-weldless-fittings/barley-crusher-canadian-home-brewing-supplies-canada-malt-grain-mill/)
And for the brew pot....
http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Ga ... rkey-Fryer (http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Garden-amp-Patio/Turkey-Fryers/36-Quart-Turkey-Fryer)
... once in a while something like this will be on sale at wal mart or canadian tire. Thought this might work okay.
Anyways just trying to get a good idea of what would work best. Let me know what you guys think... if you have some other sources that are cheaper/ better... please let me know! Thanks!
-
Home hardware carries 10 Gallon stainless pots for $80
-
go with the 50 foot chiller, the grain mill is the one I have and It's a good product. As for the pot, aluminum is fine, just make sure its at least 7.5 gallons for 5 gallon batches.
-
Sounds good. There are some nice SS pots at home hardware too... Was just looking at the one above because it comes with the burner... Is a propane burner any faster in bringing 5 gallons of wort to a boil?
-
I'd suggest the barley crusher and 50ft chiller from hopdawgs. Pretty reasonably priced. For the pot, homehardware 10gal pots look to be your best bet. You can fit them with some weldless fittings if you want, or just use a siphon for the time being.
Propane is good if you have a garage to brew in the colder months (or have a rediculous ventilation system). I wanted to use propane in my basement but my better half flat out said no ... can't really blame her. I don't have the luxury of a garage so I'm stuck using the range in my kitchen ... shitty and can hardly bring 6 gallons to boil, but gets the job done.
-
Check this out...50L SS pot at homehardware.ca for 69.99 . VERY good deal.
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index ... 7?Ntt=pot# (http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Outdoor-Living/Seasonal/Barbecues/Accessories/Miscellaneous/POT-TURKEY-FRYER-SS-50L/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN/R-I6320547?Ntt=pot#)
From what I've heard, the barley crusher at hopdawgs is good quality. I'll be getting one myself.
Canadian Tire has the 30QT aluminum pots with burners for $69.99. They even come with a 12"+ thermometer. You could buy one of those and use it for sparge water for your mash tun and use the burner for either pot.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2 ... ?locale=en (http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/BBQs/PropaneDeepFryers/PRD~0851119P/Master+Chef+Country+Cooker+Kit.jsp?locale=en)
-
Yeah I was actually just looking at that SS pot on the home hardware website... I would definitely go with that. But I had the same concern as what you just mentioned Jake.. about bringing the 6 gallons to a boil on the stove. Would a propane burner be quicker? I don't have a garage either... Just a tiny shed, so would be chilly in the winter months.
-
My burner can just barely get the wort to 212F. They say that it is supposed to get to a rolling boil, but I would hardly consider my boils "rolling" lol. But so far I haven't had any problems with taste, knock on wood. There is no question that propane will bring it to a quicker boil than electric. My suggestion would be to get 6 gallons of water on your stove and see if it can get it to boil without the lid on ... that'd be a starting point.
I know that you're not supposed to have the lid on when bringing the wort up to boil, but I tend to cheat by having it on 3/4 of the way (if not more) to retain some of the heat. I find it takes FOREVER if I don't do it this way. Once it's at 212F, I'll take off the lid and it will stay at this temp. Oh FYI where you are new to this, you don't want the lid on during boil or while bringing up to boil because you want to burn off DMS (dimethyl sulfide I believe it is), and if you keep the lid on your pot, it does not escape and you can taste that shit in your beer.
-
Good to know... and Good thinking, I will test my stove at some point with 6 gallons of water and see how long it takes to bring to a boil..
-
I may be way off with this... But think this would ever work for a brew pot?
http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Ga ... rkey-Fryer (http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Garden-amp-Patio/Turkey-Fryers/Electric-Turkey-Fryer)
-
Something like that may work, but I'm not sure whether it could bring the wort to boil. 7.5 gallons would likely be large enough, but at that size you don't have much head space if it were to boil over. Another concern is that it is aluminium. I think I was told by some people in the group that aluminium is ok to use as long as it is treated first with some sort of solution ... possibly a mix of peroxide and white vinegar? That's what I used to treat a couple brass parts I was using, it removes any lead that could harm beer (and yourself I'm assuming).
If that could bring 6 gallons of wort to a boil, it'd be pretty cool. Any thoughts from others on this?
-
that electric kettle would be perfect for sparge water! keep your water at a constant 170.
-
It was a 7.5g pot, so size is minimum, but okay.
I use an aluminum pot and the myth of off-taste is just that, to treat it, you just need to build an oxide layer, which is done by filling with water and bringing to a boil. I just put a gallon or so of water in mine, put lid on, and let the steam do that.
Its actually a really cool idea, but I'm thinking its 120 volts since it does not mention any special power requirements, so it will take a Loooooonnnnggg time to come to a boil. I'd buy a 220v 15 gal version of this if it exists!
-
Yeah Im thinking you guys are right in that the thing would have hard time with 6 gallons... Here is the owners manual...
http://www.cajuninjector.com/Electric%2 ... 08corr.pdf (http://www.cajuninjector.com/Electric%20fryer%20Booklet%20F-E%200808corr.pdf)
... I dont see much about voltage though
I just like the idea of being able to boil in my basement. Could one of those portable electric burners ever be able to boil 6 gallons?
-
It could is you built a heat stick to go along with it Howah has built one and used it without being dead
-
In the parts lits picture in the manual, the cord type drawn is 120v, no indication of amperage, but the manual says not to use an extension cord as it will weaken the current and take longer to cook, and odd way of saying that it takes alot of current and an extension of the wrong gauge may melt and burn.
-
Well, the manual says that it takes no more than 55 minutes to get oil up to 400F (204C). That's not bad at all considering you'd want sparge water at 170F.
One big draw back I see with the unit though is the temperature control. The manual says the unit will drop 5C before turning back on...so thats not the most accurate.
Anyone see a big issue with a 5C drop? I guess if you timed your sparging right, you could just wait for the unit to turn back on to heat up to 170F?
-
Specific heat capacity of water is much higher than cooking oil. Liquid water is 4.18 Joules to raise one gram by one degree celcius. Vegetable oil is 1.6. So to raise the temperature of 6 gallons of canola oil to 204C from 18C (assuming 100% efficiency) you need 21K * 1.6 * 184 = ~6 Mega Joules. For the same quantity of water to 100C from 18C you'd need 23K * 4.18 * 82 = ~8 Mega Joules... Slightly higher energy required, despite the lesser temp range.
If it takes an hour to get up to 400F, it's going to take longer than that to get a boil going (assuming it's insulated enough that it can ever reach that point). Sparge water might be ok.
-
Yeah Im thinking I like the idea of it... since it would save me from going up and down a flight of stairs with 5 gallons of wort... But doubt it would work all that well.
Thanks for the input though! I will likely be heading to home hardware and purchasing a regular stainless steel brew pot... along with a thermometer.
-
This is what I really want to do in the future Dan, and I know that a couple people in the group are looking to do the same thing:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-element-kits
It's a heating element from a water heater; requires a 220 volt outlet. I guess it has no problem bringing 10+ gallons up to boil in no time. Looks like you can buy the pre-assembled kits for $200 bucks.
Does anyone know whether if I bought this, if it would work without the electric brewery control board? Is there any way that I could just control the heat output without the control board? I wouldn't mind having somehting like this, but am not willing to do the whole electric brewery build .... can it be regulated manually in any way?
-
yes, I will be using a manual control in mine.
Basically all you need is the following:
220v 30a GFCI (so as not to kill yourself): inline ones are VERY hard to find, but a spa-panel bought in the US will run about $50
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100686230/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Control panel using pulse-width modulation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation
they are very easy to build, and variable duty is the best format. Or, you can buy them for about $10 for US-based ones or:
http://www.canakit.com/5a-motor-speed-controller-pwm.html
which may be cheapest once you factor in shipping
Regarding diagram below: this is my plan, but it is for hypothetical, illustrative purposes only neither I nor FCBA accept ANY liability related to its implementation
This is hypothetical, not electrical advice and I am not an electrician
-
Tell ya what, you build yourself one and survive, and I'll pay you to make me one :rock:
-
Thats some pretty intense stuff that is completely over my head hahah.
One more question... Is there ANY hope in finding one of those portable electric burners that could actually boil 6 gallons?
-
I've been looking for a while, believe me. The best if you don't want to get into electronics is probably this:
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Electric-Kettle-Controller-4-Wire-306p3594.htm
You will still need GFCI
-
Yeah thats pretty interesting....
I think for now I will be going to a propane burner. Save some time and electricity...
So if I go ahead and buy this...
http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Ga ... rkey-Fryer (http://www.walmart.ca/Outdoor-Living/Garden-amp-Patio/Turkey-Fryers/36-Quart-Turkey-Fryer)
... I may need to somehow treat the aluminum pot? Or would you guys recommend just going to a stainless steel set up?
-
that pot will be perfect its tall and skinny I even got good rolling boils with my pot exactly the same as that one
-
Save some time and electricity...
Just so you know, I'm pretty sure that though you may save electricity, you are not likely to save $$.
From what I've read, although propane has many advantages, the energy cost balance is significantly in favour of electric.
JQ
-
I think Hawoh currently has the most significant electric rig. He'd probably be able to comment.
-
Would never have guessed propane can be more expensive than electricity... Stove top boiling is back in the running.
In case you guys havent noticed, im pretty damn cheap...
-
Save some time and electricity...
Just so you know, I'm pretty sure that though you may save electricity, you are not likely to save $$.
From what I've read, although propane has many advantages, the energy cost balance is significantly in favour of electric.
JQ
I may be completely wrong, which is possible as it's kinda my job to know this but I haven't needed to know in quite a while ...but I don't think that's correct. It's much cheaper to heat this base with oil than with electricity (right now we're using NG)
while you probably don't want to heat your house this winter with propane I think you're better off money-wise boiling 5 gallons of wort on a propane burner than on your stovetop.
here's some figures:
1 gallon of propane = 27 Kwh electricity
$/KwH X 27 = $/equivalent gallon
20lb tank = about 4.5 gallons propane
I'm hearing rumours that Costco fills a 20lb tank for just over 10 bucks????
I only know what the federal gubment is paying for electricity this year ...someone who's at home take a look at your last power bill and post what they're paying per KwH, I'm going to guess 12-15 cents ..if that's the case then that's an equivalent $18.23 a gallon against $10 for propane
Add to this the fact that the stove runs much longer than the propane does to get the liquid to boil ..particularly on a flat top stove. And that exhaust hood is not running for free either.
-
http://www.nbpower.com/html/en/resident ... rates.html (http://www.nbpower.com/html/en/residential/rates/rates.html)
$0.0985 per kWh = $2.66 per gallon equivalent.
if 20lb is 4.5gals that'd be an equivalent cost of $11.96 for the electricity "fill".
So really it looks like they're basically on-par, give or take a couple of bucks, assuming propane is as cheap as Dean mentioned.
This looks relevant, but I didn't bother to read it or reconcile it with these numbers:
http://www.propane101.com/propanevselectricity.htm (http://www.propane101.com/propanevselectricity.htm)
-
I recall last week Costco was trading tanks for 11.99 (specified as up to 20 lbs) - I get my 100 lbs'ers filled at Lakeshore fuels (delivered) for about the same $/lbs...
My burner is 65000 BTU - I can boil 20L of water in under 20 minutes. I've done 6 batches with my 100 lbs'er and a few corn boils and its nowhere near being empty. (approx. $70 to fill including tax). I have a little space in the garage so it works ok for me - not sure how I'll do in winter... I do have a good coat though...
I will eventually have an electric setup, but for me I'd want to be able to mash with a kettle (so I could do multi-temp mashing without infusion) - just not sure how to reconcile a thick mash (1.33G/lbs) with hot water heater element - even if it is low density - that's gotta scorch easy? (sorry - don't mean to hijack the thread)...
-
I believe what I read, haven't done the math but will some time when I'm REALLY bored, is that although the energy costs are close to equal as RB pointed out, the amount of energy that ends up in the wort is significantly higher in an electric setup than in a propane setup. In the propane many btus are heating the air around you and not the pot above the flame.
When you do a proper build, like Kyle and I are planning where the hot water element is inside the wort, you almost get a 100% energy usage because the element is submerged in the wort. You only start losing energy when the pot gets above the ambient temperature...can't do that with propane.
Just what I read, not really defending the position so much as reiterating someone else's math that I've not had the time or inclination to prove or disprove.
JQ
-
I've never had the inclination to figure it out before either ...but my employer does in fact pay me a substantial amount in exchange for the time it takes to do more than the simple math in this thread in order to advise when our heating plant should switch from oil to NG and at what rate to phase out ALL electrical HVAC appliances at a facility that spends 27 MILLION dollars a year on electricity (and we heat with gas). For the home user with a demand for a minute amount of energy by comparison I will agree that gas (NG or propane) is pretty much on par with electricity, but I stop short of saying electricity is substantially cheaper because it is not, it is my job to know that and I see the figures to back it up quite frequently. The main reason I wouldn't suggest switching a home from electricity to gas is the fact that the price fluctuates so much (we're set up to switch back and forth, homeowners are not) and is damn near impossible to predict what it'll cost 5 or 10 years down the road. Also, the initial cost to switch everything over far outweighs the savings for the average joe. Geothermal, wind, solar, etc is the same story but at least with those you have the satisfaction of not handing your money over to the big corporations.
Efficiency is a different story and John is 100% correct in saying the electric brewery is more efficient and the cheaper option (compared to the propane burners), but it's only cheaper partially because the availability of components for you and I to build a high efficiency gas unit isn't yet available. Careful about what you assume to be high efficiency when talking about electricity because as soon as you convert electricity to heat that all goes out the window (Heat is waste ...a by-product of sorts, and therefore the opposite of efficient from square one).
My point here was and still is - it is not substantially cheaper to use your kitchen stove rather than a turkey fryer to boil 5 gallons of wort.
My intent isn't to start a big debate, and I'm far from a beer making expert, but the certificate on my wall and my employer seem to think I know something about energy, efficiency, and mechanical engineering. Personally I think I've got them all fooled as I'm just another dumbass stumbling my way along ...but I digress
:cheers:
-
Thought of an easy way to work this out...
I use 2.5 hours of full power on my large burner to do one batch (when I start with cold water)
According to the specs, it draws 3400 watts.
3.4 kW x 2.5 hrs = 8.5 kWh
8.5 kWh x .0985 = $0.8375 per batch
So to be equal to electric, you'd need to be able to do 14 batches of beer from a single 20 lb bottle of propane, and that's not what I've heard is common usage for brewing, but I've never brewed with Propane, so it's only on hearsay.
from HBT search.
I get 4-5 AG batches and 7-8 extracts.
Now my induction stove will be more efficient than a "regular" stove, but a little math could easily work out whether you use more than $2-3 in electric.
JQ
-
I rather doubt this decision would save more money than any of us would piss away in an evening at a pub, even considered over a year or so.
Me, I'm getting a propane tank + turkey fryer soon, because I want to compare it to the results on the stove-top. More rigorous boil = higher hop utilisation, better hot-break, etc. I suspect the financial comparison is moot at our scale, but the practical comparison is worth checking out ;)